Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

[tayla]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Paul is being overly dramatic to emphasize how much he loves his people and wishes them to be saved.

 

[InChrist]

What I'm asking is, where did he say Christian? But furthermore and more specifically, what I'm looking to understand is, where does it say the covenants pertain to Christians. Where does it say The laws pertain to Christians? Where does it say the service of God pertain to Christians? Where does it say the promises pertain to Christians?

I think the the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises Paul was speaking of in verse 4 pertain to the chosen nation of Israel, not Christians.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What I'm asking is, where did he say Christian? But furthermore and more specifically, what I'm looking to understand is, where does it say the covenants pertain to Christians. Where does it say The laws pertain to Christians? Where does it say the service of God pertain to Christians? Where does it say the promises pertain to Christians?

Too tired to talk about it tonight.

 

[Wandering Monk]

When did Paul ever say this? Show me the script.

Ephesians 2:12

He uses the past tense: 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[Wandering Monk]

I have been reading Augustine and the Jews by Dr. Paula Fredriksen {Augustine and the Jews | Yale University Press.)

Professor Fredriksen brings out something interesting:

'Antiquity had no word for "conversion," and conceptually the act itself was odd. Ancient gods traveled in the blood; ethnicity anchored piety. How then could an individual change his ancestors, his past and his traditions? The closest analogue in Roman society was legal adoption, another ritual creation of fictive kinship. Adoption was regulated and authorized by magistrates, who were themselves priests. An adopted person, crossing kinship lines, moved also from his own family's private religious obligations (which focused on ancestors) to assume those of his adoptive family." p. 26,27

This might explain Paul's use of adoption language when speaking to Gentile believers. She also says that religious conversion in that era would have been understood in political terms and would have been seen as an act of disloyalty to former nation.

 

[Amikam Israel]

I have been reading Augustine and the Jews by Dr. Paula Fredriksen {Augustine and the Jews | Yale University Press.)

Professor Fredriksen brings out something interesting:

'Antiquity had no word for "conversion," and conceptually the act itself was odd. Ancient gods traveled in the blood; ethnicity anchored piety. How then could an individual change his ancestors, his past and his traditions? The closest analogue in Roman society was legal adoption, another ritual creation of fictive kinship. Adoption was regulated and authorized by magistrates, who were themselves priests. An adopted person, crossing kinship lines, moved also from his own family's private religious obligations (which focused on ancestors) to assume those of his adoptive family." p. 26,27

This might explain Paul's use of adoption language when speaking to Gentile believers. She also says that religious conversion in that era would have been understood in political terms and would have been seen as an act of disloyalty to former nation.

Here's what the scriptures said:

Ephesians 2:11-12
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world

Where was Christians in that statement? Oh so he was saying that the Gentiles were without Christ for a time. Who are the Gentiles? Are Christians gentiles? Let's see:
Although better sources could be used, even Wikipedia knows who the Gentiles are:

Gentile (from Latin gentilis (“of or belonging to the same people or nation”), from gēns (“clan; tribe; people, family”) + adjective suffix -īlis (“-ile”) is an ethnonym that commonly means non-Jew

Gentile - Wikipedia


Whoa...so Gentile refers to someone who belongs to the same nation (Israel) and means non-Jew as in someone who is an Israelite but is from a tribe other than Judah? Is that what a Gentile is. You mean to tell me it has nothing to do with other nations or Christians? Who woulda thought? (It also said the other groups make claims). Food for thought.

 

[Kilk1]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

This is the correct understanding of Romans 9:3-4: Paul is saying that he wishes that he could sacrifice himself, his right to Christ's kingdom, for the sake of his brethren the Israelites:

The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).



The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17).




The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1) and (Hebrews 8:10):









The laws of God of Israel were given to the Israelites because they are his people (Leviticus 26:46):




The service of God of Israel through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites (Exodus 25:2&9) (Deuternomy 4:1):


The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites (Isaiah 45:17), (Romans 10:1), (Jeremiah 23:6), (Romans 9:27), (Romans 11:26), (Acts 5:31) , (Acts 13:24) , (Revelation 21:12).

The promises are as follows:

Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):



Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)


Oh check that script again. Did God raise Jesus unto all nations or Christians. No, God of Israel raised Jesus unto Israel. Oh it makes so much sense now.

Who is getting the Kingdom? Christians all nations? Let's see:


The kingdom is for the twelve tribes of Israel. How do you get Christianity out of that? Are the Israelites Christians? The Israelites are the people who are the descendants of ancient Israel. The difference between Christianity and Israelites are Christianity is a religion, but Israelites are a chosen people

Just to make sure I understand, are you saying Romans 9:3-4 teaches that Israelites and not Gentiles will be saved? If so, how do you interpret the rest of the chapter? For example, what does verse 6 mean by saying "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (NKJV, emphasis mine)? And most importantly, how do you explain the conclusion of the chapter, verses 30-33 (emphasis mine):

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Amikam Israel]

Just to make sure I understand, are you saying Romans 9:3-4 teaches that Israelites and not Gentiles will be saved? If so, how do you interpret the rest of the chapter? For example, what does verse 6 mean by saying "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (NKJV, emphasis mine)? And most importantly, how do you explain the conclusion of the chapter, verses 30-33 (emphasis mine):

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Who are the Gentiles? Do you know? If you check, I just explained who they are.

 

[Amikam Israel]

If you're just here to preach to us, you won't be here for very long. I am not interested in reading your scriptures. What are your beliefs? Is it so difficult to put it into a few paragraphs?

I updated post #1.

 

[Amikam Israel]

That's right. Nothing. So why this strange hang-up on Jewish ethnicity?

Those who are of Jewish ethnicity, Romans 9:3-4 does not apply to them. In other words, the adoption, the glory of God, covenants, service of God, and the promises do not apply to them. Therefore, they are not Israelites. The Israelites are the descendants of the people who were slaves in Egypt.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Those who are of Jewish ethnicity, Romans 9:3-4 does not apply to them. In other words, the adoption, the glory of God, covenants, service of God, and the promises do not apply to them. Therefore, they are not Israelites. The Israelites are the descendants of the people who were slaves in Egypt.

Ruth was not a descendant of slaves from Egypt. Yet she became part of Israel: Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

 

[Deeje]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

This is the correct understanding of Romans 9:3-4: Paul is saying that he wishes that he could sacrifice himself, his right to Christ's kingdom, for the sake of his brethren the Israelites:

Why would Paul say that if the Jews were actually listening to the teachings of the one whom Paul recognized as their legitimate Messiah? He was afraid that their refusal to accept the Christ would exclude them from the promises God made to their forefathers...and he was right. As a former Pharisee, he knew what was needed to be saved. His countrymen were showing little inclination to listen to the truth....an ancient trait, unfortunately.

The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).

But why was Israel chosen in the first place? Wasn't it only as a concession to Abraham, as a reward for his faithful course? It wasn't that his descendants were better people than any others, but simply that his Messiah had to come through a human family that became so numerous that they formed a nation, and out of that nation, in a specific tribe, Messiah would come. Jesus fulfilled the criteria.

The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17).

And they still fell to worshipping false gods.

The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1) and (Hebrews 8:10):

How many times did God have to punish them for breaching the terms of those covenants?
The old covenant has ended and the new covenant (foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34) was inaugurated through Jesus, on the night before his death.

All of the first Christians were Jewish but they were not chosen from among the well educated ones. Jesus was sent only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"......why? Because their shepherds had neglected them and they were starving for spiritual nourishment and love. Jesus provided what they needed and took them into a new pen where they would be nurtured and fed.

The laws of God of Israel were given to the Israelites because they are his people (Leviticus 26:46):

As I see it, they "were" his people but because of their conduct, they lost their place. God formed a new nation and transferred Israel's promises to them.

Acts of the Apostles 15:14...
"14 Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name." (CJB)

Gentiles would now fill the position as "a people to bear God's name". A name Israel refused to utter....a name no longer associated with Israel today.

The service of God of Israel through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites (Exodus 25:2&9) (Deuternomy 4:1):

Only if they remained faithful...which they never did.

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites (Isaiah 45:17), (Romans 10:1), (Jeremiah 23:6), (Romans 9:27), (Romans 11:26), (Acts 5:31) , (Acts 13:24) , (Revelation 21:12).

The promises are as follows:

Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):

If God rejected his wayward people and chose a new nation from among the Gentiles to bear his name, then literal Israel will not be saved.

When the apostle Paul spoke of the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) he was speaking about Jesus' followers, not the literal Jews who were guilty of setting up the murder of their own Messiah.

Jesus had already determined their status from God's perspective.....
"Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 38 Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate. 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’” (Matthew 23:37-39 CJB)

God abandoned the Jews when he had fulfilled his promise to produce their Messiah. Their response to Jesus was the same as it had always been, don't repent and allow yourself to be corrected.....just silence the messenger.

In two thousand years, have the Jews as a nation ever "blessed the one who came in the name of Adonai" (Yahweh) Thankfully individually, many Jews have come to accept that their Messiah did come, but the fleshly Jews still stubbornly deny his coming and refuse to take responsibility for his murder.

Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins

will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)

Oh please... there has to be repentance in order for God to forgive sins....since when has Israel ever repented of their grossest sin? When will they turn to Jesus as the Christ and become his disciples? Not any time soon I'll wager.

Oh check that script again. Did God raise Jesus unto all nations or Christians. No, God of Israel raised Jesus unto Israel. Oh it makes so much sense now.

Who is getting the Kingdom? Christians all nations? Let's see:

The kingdom is for the twelve tribes of Israel. How do you get Christianity out of that?

This is exactly the same hole that the Pharisees fell into in Jesus' day.

John the Baptist showed God's response to them....
"But when Yochanan saw many of the P’rushim and Tz’dukim coming to be immersed by him, he said to them, “You snakes! Who warned you to escape the coming punishment? 8 If you have really turned from your sins to God, produce fruit that will prove it! 9 And don’t suppose you can comfort yourselves by saying, ‘Avraham is our father’! For I tell you that God can raise up for Avraham sons from these stones! 10 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire!" (Matthew 3:7-10 CJB)

The Israel of God today is not the fleshly Jews...it is the chosen ones among the disciples of Christ Jesus.
Assuming that because one is a son of Abraham is self-delusion according to John.

So, I'm sorry but everything you have written is simply not true. Your assertions have no weight with Christians at all. Jesus is "the way the truth and the life....no one comes to God except through him".

Its not too late.......yet.

 

[Amikam Israel]

Ruth was not a descendant of slaves from Egypt. Yet she became part of Israel: Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

By marrying Boaz? No, she is who her father was. Her father was a Moabite, so she is also.

Numbers 1:18
[18]And they assembled all the congregation [of Israel] together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

but through her the lineage from David to Jesus continued. For example, her son was Obed. And who was Obed? An Israelite (not Moabite). Why? Because his father Boaz was an Israelite. Boaz violated the law by marrying an outsider. The story of Ruth only reveals the difficulty in keeping the laws but marrying does not change one's nationality.

 

[Deeje]

Whoa...so Gentile refers to someone who belongs to the same nation (Israel) and means non-Jew as in someone who is an Israelite but is from a tribe other than Judah? Is that what a Gentile is. You mean to tell me it has nothing to do with other nations or Christians? Who woulda thought? (It also said the other groups make claims). Food for thought.

Who was God talking about in Genesis 22:18 when he made his promise to Abraham?

"And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice." (Tanach)

All the nations of the world are not Jews. But through Abraham's children, all those nations would be blessed. The Jews as the vehicle for the Messiah would accomplish that. But they did not live up to their promise to obey their God.

Exodus 19:5-6...
"And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.

6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel." (Tanach)

Did Israel obey God and keep his covenant? That was the proviso...see the word "if"...its a little word with a large meaning. If they did not obey Yahweh and keep his covenant, then the promise would be withdrawn. They would not become "a kingdom of princes and a holy nation". As Jesus said...their house would be "left desolate".

The Bible tells the story. Your own scripture carries the warning.

 

[Amikam Israel]

Ye (as in typical christians) say:

God formed a new nation and transferred Israel's promises to them.

Bible says:

Romans 11:1-5

[I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ye say:

God abandoned the Jews when he had fulfilled his promise to produce their Messiah.

Romans 3:1-4
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

All of the first Christians were Jewish

Probably, but Jewish (them who say they are jews and are not - Revelation 2:9 & Revelation 3:9) are not Israelites. Christians (other nations who want kingdom) are not Israelites.

Ye say:

Oh please... there has to be repentance in order for God to forgive sins

And yet no matter what ye say, Acts 5:31 is still true. Repentance will still be given to Israel. Why? because that's what the scriptures hath said. Doth ye not see what ye say is inconsistent with what the bible say?

Ye say:

Gentiles would now fill the position as "a people to bear God's name".

Who are the Gentiles? Do you even know? Check what this link reveals:
Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

Ye say

The Israel of God today is not the fleshly Jews...it is the chosen ones among the disciples of Christ Jesus.

Bible says:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What remnant and what grace?

Ezekiel 28:25
Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

Oh so God of Israel is going to gather the remnant of his people in the sight of the other nations and bring the remnant of Israel back to their homeland. Oh that's what its saying. Never said anything about doing anything for Christians. By the way, you have to be in the flesh in order to dwell in the land. The heathen are the so-called Christians (other nations who want the Kingdom).

Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:

Whoa, look at that. The word was only sent to Israel. This is Paul preaching.

Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Christ is the grace, the savior of Israel. Christ is the savior of Israel only:

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ is always for Israel. Show me where this is contrary anywhere. Christ was about his father's business. To gather the remnant of Israel. Paul continued Christ's work, gathering the remnant of Israel. There is no other gospel or doctrine besides this. Any other preaching besides gathering the remnant of Israel is the lie.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Oh Jesus was speaking to the JEWS when he said If ye continue in my word, ye are my disciples. Wait was he speaking to other nations or Christians? Nay. If he was, script and verse please.

 

[Amikam Israel]

Did Israel obey God and keep his covenant? That was the proviso...see the word "if"...its a little word with a large meaning. If they did not obey Yahweh and keep his covenant, then the promise would be withdrawn.

Obviously you do not understand the New Testament. What is the new covenant that God made with the house of Israel? Let's see:

Hebrews 8:8
[8]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Is this consistent with what Jeremiah said in the Old Testament regarding the same new covenant?

Jeremiah 31:31-33

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Oh the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Wait, ye thought that God had cast away the Jews, but the bible says that the house of Judah is part of the new covenant so hath he cast away the Jews? God forbid. There is only one truth (Israel's Laws) Psalms 119:142 , one doctrine (the gathering of the remnant of Israel) all the prophets of God , one God (of Israel) Luke 1:68 , one faith (in God; that he will save Israel bring them back to their homeland) Mark 11:22 and one baptism (Israel repenting) Luke 3:3

 

[Enoch07]

Quick question @Amikam Israel

Does John 8 have relevance? You can PM me the answer if you don't want to answer publicly.

 

[Amikam Israel]

Quick question @Amikam Israel

Does John 8 have relevance? You can PM me the answer if you don't want to answer publicly.

Does John 8 have relevance to what exactly? Can you be more specific please? What relevance does it have for you?

 

[Enoch07]

Does John 8 have relevance to what exactly? Can you be more specific please?

To the subject of your OP.

I'm guessing not since you do not immediately see the connection.

No worries,

Carry on!

 

[74x12]

Why did you not interpret verse four as well?

It's pretty self explanatory. What do you not understand?