Who Wants to Live Forever? And Why?

[muichimotsu]

(re living 'forever' on earth- or as long as the earth exists)

Do I get to produce offspring?

Is my 'immortality' in my DNA?

We could evolve the ENTIRE world.

If you're many immortals, probably no offspring. Either sterile or simply infertile by your nature

Many immortals seem to have it brought upon them.

 

[Straw Dog]

Admittedly, this is just a story, but this seems in contrast to your original position, at least to an extent. I like the position and how it's elaborated upon with a concrete sort of example as well.

It's not necessarily meant to be read in black and white however. I may have explained it that way. It does illustrate possible illusions with immortality. I also add the stipulation of losing something in return for both immortality and time travel, which might not necessarily be the case for other scernarios.

 

[Reptillian]

I wouldn't want to be immortal, but I want to live with a potential life span of forever...if that makes sense. What's depressing about mortality is knowing that you're growing old and getting closer to the end. A 90 year old doesn't have as much potential life in front of him as a 20 year old. So, I'd like to live potentially indefinitely, but still know that death is someday inevitable. I remember a few years ago that some staticians had used violent and accidental death data to predict how long an average modern human would live if age related causes of death were eliminated. The projected life span was around 2000 to 3000 years.

 

[Repox]

There is only one possibility for living forever. One must accept God without reservation or condition. Eternity is based on God's will, not ours. I believe if we love God and accept his will we can have eternal live. That is my desire, but it depends on God.

 

[muichimotsu]

It's not necessarily meant to be read in black and white however. I may have explained it that way. It does illustrate possible illusions with immortality. I also add the stipulation of losing something in return for both immortality and time travel, which might not necessarily be the case for other scernarios.

Immortality, like many things that seem very appealing, do tend to have a trade off. Omnipotence means you'd never be surprised, kind of like telepathy, heh.

 

[muichimotsu]

There is only one possibility for living forever. One must accept God without reservation or condition. Eternity is based on God's will, not ours. I believe if we love God and accept his will we can have eternal live. That is my desire, but it depends on God.

That doesn't sound like faith, it sounds like slavery of the mind. Any good faith, from what I understand as a religious studies major (which I imagine may not count for much to you) is also countered by a sense of doubt or concern or even reservation of some form

If eternity is based on God's will, but God would know everything, wouldn't God known whether or not immortality is good for everyone? Not to mention does this mean God consigns people to oblivion and nonexistence merely because they don't believe in it?

 

[muichimotsu]

I wouldn't want to be immortal, but I want to live with a potential life span of forever...if that makes sense. What's depressing about mortality is knowing that you're growing old and getting closer to the end. A 90 year old doesn't have as much potential life in front of him as a 20 year old. So, I'd like to live potentially indefinitely, but still know that death is someday inevitable. I remember a few years ago that some staticians had used violent and accidental death data to predict how long an average modern human would live if age related causes of death were eliminated. The projected life span was around 2000 to 3000 years.

Forever is always relative to time and is technically hyperbole in that it cannot be strictly measured, but the point is noted: you want indefinite life, but also acknowledge that your death is a part of life in a sense. Depression is a response to things that is too pessimistic. If I'm 90 and have accomplished things, I'll be happy. It's if I haven't that will motivate me to do something about it.

 

[LuisDantas]

do you want to live forever

Definitely not. It wouldn't make any sense for me to.

and if so, why? Make an effort to defend the position of immortality as something we as humans desire and/or should desire. Ethics are of particular import here, not to mention aesthetics, metaphysics and epistemology to a certain extent.

Going by those parameters then, Immortality should be desired by humans after several deep societal changes are attained, which may well never happen.

For starters, ecological and demographic stability are prerequisites. But even more urgent than that is the conquest of true widespread health in families and societies, which is unfortunately unlikely to happen in the next few centuries - if at all.

I would argue that immortality is probably the worst curse one could wish on a person, since there is no real sense of progress, time, etc.

Immortality per se is quite the terrible curse, although I guess some specific subvarieties are even worse. And, under utterly utopical circunstances, it can be bliss instead.

I would sooner wish to be reborn/reincarnated, if there was no option for nonexistence, than to live forever, either as a disembodied spirit, or in some immortal body.

I'd say there are 5 variables that are important to the discussion, though there are likely more.

Material Vs. Immaterial-Whether the immortality is corporeal in nature or whether you have gone beyond the physical and have some sort of at least semi spiritual body.

Communal vs. Individual-Is the immortality a part of a large society or is it something an individual has, by one of many methods or traits associated with that state?

One of the major factors. Loneliness is a very unhealthy circunstance.

Innate vs. Innovation-Has the immortality always been a fact of life or has it come about by some outside source?

I'm not quite figuring how that is significant. Does it relate to how trustworthy and reversible that immortality would be?

Permanent vs. Provisional-Can you never cease being immortal or is there a way to stop the state and render yourself dead?

This may well be the single most important factor.

Resistant vs. Nonresistant-This is probably one of the traits least thought about. Are you physically indestructible or even resistant to disease, or are you subject to all or most of the human weaknesses, but are simply unable to die naturally, such as the elves in Middle Earth?

And how does aging affect you? Not only physically, but also emotionally and mentally?

Personally, I don't think humans are at all well suited to immortality or even to plain old age. Far too much attention has been given to survival and too little to actual quality of life. Far too many people actively pursue what amounts to a life of misery (not only or even mainly in the financial sense) and, worst of all, make a point of passing it forward to the next generation.

IMO a sixth variable does exist, and it will be related to Quality of Life, as well as to power over one's circunstances. In fact, it is important enough to make the worries about immortality proper quite secondary to this far more important matter.

 

[muichimotsu]

Definitely not. It wouldn't make any sense for me to.

It makes no sense for anyone to if immortality is life in excess

Going by those parameters then, Immortality should be desired by humans after several deep societal changes are attained, which may well never happen.

For starters, ecological and demographic stability are prerequisites. But even more urgent than that is the conquest of true widespread health in families and societies, which is unfortunately unlikely to happen in the next few centuries - if at all.

So immortality could be something we want if our culture was different?

Immortality per se is quite the terrible curse, although I guess some specific subvarieties are even worse. And, under utterly utopical circunstances, it can be bliss instead.

As I brought up though, utopia was noted to be a nonplace in that it was idealistic and wishful thinking, not realistic

One of the major factors. Loneliness is a very unhealthy circunstance.

The Immortals come to mind

I'm not quite figuring how that is significant. Does it relate to how trustworthy and reversible that immortality would be?

Moreso that you have a different worldview based on whether you become immortal or have always been since birth. Psychology and all

This may well be the single most important factor.

Very much so

And how does aging affect you? Not only physically, but also emotionally and mentally?

Are you physically immortal or psychologically so, basically.

Personally, I don't think humans are at all well suited to immortality or even to plain old age. Far too much attention has been given to survival and too little to actual quality of life. Far too many people actively pursue what amounts to a life of misery (not only or even mainly in the financial sense) and, worst of all, make a point of passing it forward to the next generation.

We don't appreciate the shortness of life

IMO a sixth variable does exist, and it will be related to Quality of Life, as well as to power over one's circunstances. In fact, it is important enough to make the worries about immortality proper quite secondary to this far more important matter.

Are you well off or not, you mean? Or that you are content or not?

 

[Le Neigeden d'antan]

I think even in the most ideal case, I might get tired of living after a few hundred years.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

I had a thread before elsewhere called "The Desirability of Immortality", though I think this Queen song works much better

The basic question is this: do you want to live forever and if so, why? Make an effort to defend the position of immortality as something we as humans desire and/or should desire. Ethics are of particular import here, not to mention aesthetics, metaphysics and epistemology to a certain extent.

I would argue that immortality is probably the worst curse one could wish on a person, since there is no real sense of progress, time, etc. I would sooner wish to be reborn/reincarnated, if there was no option for nonexistence, than to live forever, either as a disembodied spirit, or in some immortal body.

I'd say there are 5 variables that are important to the discussion, though there are likely more.

Material Vs. Immaterial-Whether the immortality is corporeal in nature or whether you have gone beyond the physical and have some sort of at least semi spiritual body.

Communal vs. Individual-Is the immortality a part of a large society or is it something an individual has, by one of many methods or traits associated with that state?

Innate vs. Innovation-Has the immortality always been a fact of life or has it come about by some outside source?

Permanent vs. Provisional-Can you never cease being immortal or is there a way to stop the state and render yourself dead?

Resistant vs. Nonresistant-This is probably one of the traits least thought about. Are you physically indestructible or even resistant to disease, or are you subject to all or most of the human weaknesses, but are simply unable to die naturally, such as the elves in Middle Earth?

If you mean the question in any way, the idea is that 'we are alive now.' We cannot believe, we will die. It appears, that if we can feel like this, are we basically feeling that life is not what it appears? We age from time to time, and we cannot see the difference, and we do die, and we don't know the exact time we die, or will die. We are telling ourselves, that if we are happy, now, we want this moment not to move. Hence, we interpret the idea of everlasting life, in the manner we do.

 

[Straw Dog]

Immortality, like many things that seem very appealing, do tend to have a trade off. Omnipotence means you'd never be surprised, kind of like telepathy, heh.

There is no perfection without defect.

 

[Repox]

That doesn't sound like faith, it sounds like slavery of the mind. Any good faith, from what I understand as a religious studies major (which I imagine may not count for much to you) is also countered by a sense of doubt or concern or even reservation of some form

If eternity is based on God's will, but God would know everything, wouldn't God known whether or not immortality is good for everyone? Not to mention does this mean God consigns people to oblivion and nonexistence merely because they don't believe in it?

Yep, I think you got it partly right. How else can we have mortality except by God? No human who has that kind of power. We age and die, and there is no evidence to the contrary. So, discussing eternity without God is fantasy.

I believe it is all about believing and accept God without conditions or reservations. Actually, this is the main reason why there may be no salvation. Contrary to some Christian beliefs humans are not inclined to be obedient to God. They have independent wills (egos). I suspect in the presence of God most humans would expect some kind of deference or approval. Perhaps, they would try to tell God how to run things, or attempt to exercise their authority. So, not wanting to have another Satan in heaven, God shuts the gate.

I think there are several possibilities: ignoring God, rejecting of God, accepting God with conditions, total acceptance with no conditions or reservations (slavery).

Angels must be slaves.

It's a big dilemma, humans may want to be with God, but they also want their independence.

 

[muichimotsu]

So many Christians argue that our immortality is in our nature, probably because we're created in god's image and such.

Why would I want to be with perfection when imperfect entities are so much more interesting?

 

[muichimotsu]

There is no perfection without defect.

Therefore perfection is illusory in nature and one can only be close to it, not completely so. This would apply to immortality as well, logically speaking, it seems.

 

[Repox]

So many Christians argue that our immortality is in our nature, probably because we're created in god's image and such.

Why would I want to be with perfection when imperfect entities are so much more interesting?

Choices have consequences. I find God's perfection more interesting than this world. I believe we're incapable of living in a perfect world (heaven). I've explored many of life's paths, and having found them wanting. I chose eternal life with God. It is not just a gamble, I really want to be with God in heaven. In the end, it's up to God, we have no means to make it happen.

There are only two possibilities: mortal existence or immortality with God.

 

[muichimotsu]

So you're purely doing this because of your desires instead of accepting the mystery, which in your worldview makes sense, that you may or may not be granted immortality? Qualify if you wish, but the base idea seems to be rooted in one's clinging to life.

What's uninteresting about this world? Wasn't Jesus a human just like us according to your beliefs?

 

[Repox]

So you're purely doing this because of your desires instead of accepting the mystery, which in your worldview makes sense, that you may or may not be granted immortality? Qualify if you wish, but the base idea seems to be rooted in one's clinging to life.

What's uninteresting about this world? Wasn't Jesus a human just like us according to your beliefs?

I believe Jesus was God and not his son, so my belief is different than most Christians. I don't believe Jesus extolled worldly virtues, it was about his kingdom. He was not just like us. Because he was different, he was murdered.

If you know something about God and heaven, you might not have an interest in this world. I've explored this world with a lifetime of experiences and some achievements, compared to God and heaven, it falls short.

 

[muichimotsu]

Jesus being God and Jesus being God's son aren't necessarily contradictions in Christian theology, though I can understand your wanting to believe the former without the trappings of the latter

Worldly virtues can be construed a few ways, but I imagine you're meaning overly focused on this world, which isn't what I'm arguing for. This world is temporary in that it is always changing, not that it will be replaced by a heaven on earth or anything like that

You probably are specifically referring to spiritual knowledge, so any other knowledge I may have as a philosopher of religion may be useless or otherwise unhelpful here, correct?

 

[Repox]

Jesus being God and Jesus being God's son aren't necessarily contradictions in Christian theology, though I can understand your wanting to believe the former without the trappings of the latter

Worldly virtues can be construed a few ways, but I imagine you're meaning overly focused on this world, which isn't what I'm arguing for. This world is temporary in that it is always changing, not that it will be replaced by a heaven on earth or anything like that

You probably are specifically referring to spiritual knowledge, so any other knowledge I may have as a philosopher of religion may be useless or otherwise unhelpful here, correct?

On the surface there may not appear to be contradictions between Concepts of God and son of God. However, if you read Christian religious doctrines you'll not find a single statement that excludes the son of God as part of the trinity. Son of God appears to be extremely important to Christianity.

I don't mean to demean philosophy of religion. Because I have had experiences with God, angels, and heaven, I don't believe I can engage in a rational debate. My spiritual experiences put me into trouble waters, it can only lead to misunderstandings and disbelief. Rather than continuing the discussion, lets stop it here.

Thanks for the discussion.