Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[TransmutingSoul]

The quote is not primarily about disbelief in God, it is also about rebelling against God's sovereignty in favor of one's corrupt inclinations and desires. I believe that they will be consigned to hell, which is what I think Baha'u'llah was referring to at the end of the following passage: "If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” It is self and passion that causes one to sink into the depths, not simply non-belief in God.."

Yes I would consider you summary as sound, that the passage could be better understood by considering it is a reference to the more deadly spiritual disease of covenant breaking.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think an atheist can embrace those counsels without belief in God. They could consider Baha'u'llah a wise man with good ideas, but not a Messenger of God. I knew an atheist once who thought that way and he had' all about Baha'u'llah' on his website! He was a humanist like @It Aint Necessarily So and some other atheists on this forum.

Yes, that is sound reasoning, to which I see, I do agree with.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I would consider you summary as sound, that the passage could be better understood by considering it is a reference to the more deadly spiritual disease of covenant breaking.

Regards Tony

How do you think the passage is a reference to covenant breaking?

 

[rational experiences]

The history Moses. Life could have been eradicated.

Long count 2012 was applied to saving by wandering star only.

Rome and greedy men. Said I will update the pyramid model. Built Stonehenge. As England proves it gets a lot of fallout. On crops.

Stonehenge just as warned blew up.

Rome began to inherit comet burn. They had sacrificed the saviour. Earths ice. Earths asteroid wanderer.

So they knew and saw evil minds behaviour emerge.

Write the advice knowing humans lose mind sanity. Owned and implemented legal system. Exact to assist humanity.

Reason exact.

Medical reasons brain entrainment resonance so built church model. To implement humans conscious support. Therapy three times daily. Brothers world agreed.

1000 years later burning predicted returns and sacrificed life. It happened. Jesus was returned life sacrificed.

Asteroid burning breaking up so we did not get 2000 cooled returned asteroid wanderer. As Moses had stated. Exact advised the holy star reasoning.

Instead 1901 Russia hit.

Proving long count healing health mind consciousness not gained on earth.

Just because the old testimonials wasn't heeded. Why it had been written technology is evil.

Instead burnt minds reinherited nuclear advice. From 1901 event.

Satan burning falling star now owns the review as a takeover of human consciousness.

Just as warned.

Copying.

The Baha'i review. Speech behaviour proved human father's God earth human man advice. See who we were meant to be like. Proved our holy minded brother.

Loving caring mutual governing mutual trade mutual. Realised why.

Not threatening each brother with a nuclear weapon. As fear and threat controls my brother's choices. Not working.

Baha'i brother....not historic to the Jerusalem advice. As Jerusalem origin holy advice man's baby DNA genesis from Moses causes had returned healed. Spiritual men living returned.

Was the medical advice only. Proven by spiritual awareness and man's teaching. Was again like father. Spiritual natural conscious living.

Then the life given back inherited from cooling saved heavens body mass was then destroyed by men of science technology. Proven.

Rome was hated. Proven. Before them Egyptian using technology hated. Proven.

Now all brothers United use technology just as warned. Destroyer warning of life on earth is real.

Rome owning comet attack notified warned life future by updating the 2012 long count advice with exact details that said it would not be achieved. Life's healing.

As 1000 sacrificed life would return as predicted. It was.
They already were witnessing the futures inheritance of Jesus life sacrificed returned instead.

Human behaviour.

The Roman warnings were exact to humanity. They knew. It's science and legal and rich men who ignored the correct teachings advice about why human man's consciousness was no longer like holy father's.

I knew I heard the human daughters grief expressed in memory about losing him out of our life.

As a lot of human men no longer care about females mutual life status as father's or brothers. Proven also.

I know I'm not wrong. I've experienced the evidence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you think the passage is a reference to covenant breaking?

The part about "and rebelled". I cannot see how you can rebel against the sovereignty of God, unless and until you have accepted God's Sovereignty.

"..They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty.."

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

The part about "and rebelled". I cannot see how you can rebel against the sovereignty of God, unless and until you have accepted God's Sovereignty.

"..They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty.."

Regards Tony

The bible is a humans brother scientific testimonial confession.

A self contradiction as he contradicted living as a healthy human on rock of G d sealed. Exact taught.

An earth sealed was by saviour and ice.
Asteroids wandered past earth hadn't hit. Saved earth.

Snap freeze. In the times of giants life. Living by Satan's heavens terms hot gases. Ended.

Water sealed gas fall burning by comet asteroid dinosaur star hit volcanic eruptions earthquakes.

Sealed earth saved life on earth sealed. Known earths history as a human theist.

Warning to his brother don't destroy life. Rock sealed holy.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Message for this age is how we can obtain unto the most great peace. Unfortunately that was rejected before we were born, so our concern is the Lesser Peace.

Erm, I am. I am a member of a progressive liberal, socialist movement. I donate and volunteer and protest and campaign and vote.
What are you doing?

Tony, how many things is KWED doing that are consistent with what Baha'i want to see happen? How many people are involved in trying to bring around change? With racial and gender issues? The environment and so many other things? People are doing the right things, but even though the Baha'i Faith is for those things, Baha'is aren't doing them. Baha'is seem more concerned about people recognizing their prophet. Is that the right thing to be focused on? Because Baha'is are missing connections with people that are doing the things needed to make positive change. But when Baha'is make it all about their prophet, and getting people to recognize him, that becomes a barrier.

Does it look like the Christ has already come and a new age has begun? No, things look worse than ever. So, Baha'is have to go into a big explanation of why things are getting worse. But Baha'is miss connections with lots of religious people too, because Baha'is tell them that their old religion no longer works and then Baha'is expect them to listen and understand? No, they are going to find reasons why the Baha'i Faith is not all that it claims to be. Baha'is keep presenting the Faith in ways that creates arguments. Arguments that neither side wins.

Like this thread... How do "we" evaluate Baha'u'llah's claims? Not favorably. And how do Baha'is evaluate them? As if they are so obvious that anybody can see that he is the return of the Christ, the return of Krishna, the return of Buddha, the return of everybody else ever promised? No, it's not "obvious". There's lots of questions and lots of things that are complicated or too vague to make it obviously true to everybody. So, we question. We argue. And we ask the same or similar questions over and over again. And Baha'i keep giving the same answers and say, "This is the proof. This is the evidence. God is real and sends manifestations. And manifestations are the evidence or proof, whatever the claim is, that God is real."

With KWED, what is this progressive liberal, socialist movement? He very well could be doing more things to bring about positive change to the world than many Baha'is. But we'll never know. Because we don't care about that. The big concern is... Does he believe the claims of Baha'u'llah?

 

[rational experiences]

The review says should we believe Egyptians star hit. No. Muslim brothers history ownership status. Sciences.

They however did. Built technology upon the advice. Pyramid.....
Collider today.

Father said nuclear power plant model had saved life on earth. Only because men were controlling cooling unlike pyramid.

So Moses status was inherited advice versus Egyptian Muslim fallen star quotes. So by Hebrew terms asteroid holy wandering star position correct.

Rich man Roman control ignored Hebrew Moses new warnings. Turns the wandering star into a falling star.

By suns first origin position theories big bang blast.

By earths heavens heated space trail they caused in mass cold heavens gases burning below...same activated above by causes. Where wanderers pass through. Very close to earth.

Based on a humans falsified sun mass ejected in space theme. Claiming holy. Holy is frozen mass only.

That it would cool eventually in travel by space law.

Space had frozen the star sun into wanderers.

You heat them by abominating space law so they don't cool back to origin. Speed in burning causes faster burning. They were slowed to freeze origin.

The exact scientific teachings.

Why sun theist science worshippers were put in gaol.

Men today are asking did the bahuallah event occur? Of course it did. He challenged science of his day. Re emerging into a new human want to rebuild temple technology.

As Jesus life mind body returned sacrificed causes.

It is a true history evil Satan star science theories.

Is what the questions are asked for.

As a human isn't a star biology might live on..until the burning wanderer earth activated returns again.

It's why father said give earth a chance. Stop nuclear technology all current technical experiments so it may pass by. If you keep earths space hot you'll guarantee a hit.

Updated father's own advice by my brother's life unnaturally lost everyday sacrificed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With KWED, what is this progressive liberal, socialist movement? He very well could be doing more things to bring about positive change to the world than many Baha'is. But we'll never know. Because we don't care about that. The big concern is... Does he believe the claims of Baha'u'llah?

Good on then CG, we will work with them and all progressive movements.

Liberal socialism - Wikipedia

I note this concept started in mid to late 1800's, I wonder why CG, actually I do not wonder, as I have offered why I see many progressive movements have principles expounded by God.

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

This is one way to evaluate the Message of Baha’u’llah, what are the progressive aspirations of this age, what did Baha’u’llah offer?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The part about "and rebelled". I cannot see how you can rebel against the sovereignty of God, unless and until you have accepted God's Sovereignty.

"..They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty.."

Regards Tony

That is an interesting interpretation, but it is notable that Baha'is are not the only believers who have accepted God's sovereignty, which seems to imply that those who have rebelled against God's sovereignty are not only the covenant-breakers. I think the passage is referring to nonbelievers, and that seems to be the indication in the both passages below.

The first passage says they that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty, and I interpret it to mean not believing in God thus rebelling against God's sovereignty.

The second passage refers to recognizing God and believing in Him. It also refers to rejecting the signs of God which are His Messengers. Rejecting God's Messengers is akin to rejecting God and thus rebelling against God's sovereignty.

Let's look at both passages and you can see that they both refer to rebelling against God.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

After people have heard of Baha'u'llah, if they reject Him they are rejecting God, since He is a Messenger of God. Of course, that could also apply to believers who have rejected Baha'u'llah, according to the Tablet of Ahmad.

“O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another .......

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.”
Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad

 

[Trailblazer]

I note this concept started in mid to late 1800's, I wonder why CG, actually I do not wonder,

Neither do I, I know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is an interesting interpretation, but it is notable that Baha'is are not the only believers who have accepted God's sovereignty, which seems to imply that those who have rebelled against God's sovereignty are not only the covenant-breakers. I think the passage is referring to nonbelievers, and that seems to be the indication in the both passages below.

The first passage says they that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty, and I interpret it to mean not believing in God thus rebelling against God's sovereignty.

The second passage refers to recognizing God and believing in Him. It also refers to rejecting the signs of God which are His Messengers. Rejecting God's Messengers is akin to rejecting God and thus rebelling against God's sovereignty.

Let's look at both passages and you can see that they both refer to rebelling against God.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

After people have heard of Baha'u'llah, if they reject Him they are rejecting God, since He is a Messenger of God. Of course, that could also apply to believers who have rejected Baha'u'llah, according to the Tablet of Ahmad.

“O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another .......

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.”
Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad

Another point to consider is those that accepted Jesus as the Christ and then heard of either Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah can also be of the "Others" who "rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God"

There is always a lot we can consider when the verses are studied in more depth. Thus I try to remain flexible in views, with no set direction.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

People are doing the right things, but even though the Baha'i Faith is for those things, Baha'is aren't doing them. Baha'is seem more concerned about people recognizing their prophet. Is that the right thing to be focused on? Because Baha'is are missing connections with people that are doing the things needed to make positive change. But when Baha'is make it all about their prophet, and getting people to recognize him, that becomes a barrier.

If I may interject, I feel a need to say something. Mind you, I am only referring to the Baha'is in the United States, not Baha'is in other countries, since I don't know what they are doing in other countries.

I do see Baha'is connecting with other people who are not Baha'is, but I don't think that is the way Baha'is spend most of their time, not from what I see in my community.

I do not see Baha'is in my community very concerned with people recognizing Baha'u'llah but rather I see them meeting amongst themselves, in study groups, book clubs, and devotionals. If that is representative of other Baha'i communities in the United States, that might explain the lack of growth of the Baha'i Faith in this country. After all, how many Baha'is want to encounter the rejection that the Baha'is encounter in a mostly Christian country? It is probably much easier to keep to themselves. Maybe I am not being fair, but this is what I see in my Baha'i community.

It would seem to me that the UHJ and the NSA of the United States would be concerned about this lack of growth of the Faith. Not long ago @Truthseeker presented me with some statistics and they were dismal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another point to consider is those that accepted Jesus as the Christ and then heard of either Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah can also be of the "Others" who "rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God"

Indeed, those Others are the other believers who Baha'u'llah was referring to in the Tablet of Ahmad, the believers who have rejected Baha'u'llah and show pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

 

[rational experiences]

As just a man a human states God and you theoried the science of God yourself brother man. So I don't have to believe.

I believe in father. Not God.

Yet in science terms I believe in gods holy presence not Satan.

Brother. You named earth the earth..
A planet ...an entity type..a creating God.

As it is stopped consuming O as an angel in hell. Sun god.

It is becoming more and more of cooled volcanic rock creating presence in evolution. Rock.

Self creating says a theist. God earth it's own presence by evolution only.

Not being a man humans memory. I hear father better than your introduced machine controlled attack as you live interferred with life by recorded man's life as sacrificed.

By new machine imaged input into memory of men.

Machine historic metal causes.

As holy metal is a dust. Metal with God in planetary seam is cooled pressure natural positions. Natural holy Only.

You ask questions why did I say iron made iron change. You answered. You made iron a weapon. You also gained it by destriying the angel that held metal with God and gave it to evil.

Molten melt.

By Alchemy melt.

Why rome had outlawed Alchemy evil man's science beginnings from the dusts. Bible shut no one read it anymore is ignored.

It was a humans legal argument only.

As God already owned all presences.

Theist. I go by mind beyond any living natural thought to the ground. I see what I discuss. I pretended no life existed.

Yet it had.

I then pretend how I caused each billion of form to exist from position a dust. Lying as I'm not there in that dust position myself. A direct human lie.

Yet I am present with God. Human man.

Notice mind got recorded stuck in that man's theory. Memory only.

So his brother trying reason said so then believe you are god so you won't change life on earth. Still not correct advice it was reason only.

As he believes he an alien demon and Satan too. ..
whilst he thinks about destroying dust and taking it back into self consuming hell. Burning.

Is what all arguments legal the testimony agreed as no man is God.

As Phi is the word term Jesus. Words used to explain physical natural outcomes never of science data numbers first.

Natural positions are all first.

Jesus he said saved us as Phi fallout in heavens status is holy life spirit ice protected sacrificed owned oxygenated water had stopped it.

No sin holes just crop circles. You seem to forget we all live inside the heavens body.

Science caused sin hole first. Then it was stopped.

Science had illegally referenced earths sun sin holes. Not in his theory direct. But it was god earths nuclear origin the sink hole.

So he caused new sin holes as causes. Then caused attack was stopped. Otherwise we would no longer live life.

Is what he isn't telling you he theoried.

As Phi was first thought as just a Circle.
A circle given pi numbers.
A circle the same circle just given Phi numbers by a man not a God.

In his conscious mind thesis.

Liar.

Bible is a Book of lies as no human man was given permission to change life on earth.

A lie begets a new lie. So you never own a correct answer. When you reference it causing non stop argument.

In nature natural first and always was the answer. Not a book. Why it was shut. Why Rome said it was legal and shut don't argue the advice.

Yet you do.

Why a scientist today says to the history of science..religious included you are wrong. As is he wrong.

However he never admits he lied too.

So a natural human origin being has to pointedly state you're wrong.

About preaching I must idealise God as answers. I'm not a scientist or your arguments.

 

[KWED]

Please show me where Baha'u'llah ever implied that.

Sorry, it was Shoghi Effendi. My bad.

 

[Sheldon]

I think Jesus already did that.

There is no objective evidence though, even the claims we do have are subjective hearsay, written long after the events they purport to describe, and anonymously.

 

[KWED]

I never claimed that. I said that the reason there are 'apparent' contradictions is because these are no longer what revealed because the religions have corrupted. The other reason is because these so-called religions are not true religions from God that were revealed by a Messenger of God.

ok. So the contradictions are only through corrupted scripture of true religions, and false religions.

1. Which are the scriptures/religions that have been "corrupted"?
2. Which are the "false" religions?

The fact that all the religions have different interpretations of whatever was written in the early scriptures is the evidence, The fact that there are numerous sects of all these religions shows that people believe different things thus they have interpreted whatever scriptures were available in different ways. This is called deductive reasoning. The same thing has happened in all the older religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The wildly different messages of different religions over time and place are evidence for religions being cultural inventions, not evidence for all being the same message from one true god.
It is bewildering that you can claim otherwise.

I do not consider Norse gods, Greek pantheon, or Mesoamerican polytheism to be true religions because they were not revealed by a Messenger of God.

Question begging.
How do you know they weren't revealed by a messenger of god?

I believe that Hinduism is a true religion

Why?

it is the oldest religion in the world, and it has no single known founder.

So if it has no messenger, how can it be a true religion?

There is no evidence of monotheism in Hinduism because that was before monotheism was revealed by the Messengers, starting with Abraham.

Why did the first messengers from one god reveal polytheism?

No, I did not say that Baha'u'llah is God's Messenger "because He said He is."

Show me where I ever said that. You are taking what I said and creating a straw man.

I said: "That is why Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at God's Manifestation for this age, which is Baha'u'llah." The fact that Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at Him does not equate to "Baha'u'llah was a Messenger because He said so."[/quote] That is precisely what it equates to!
You really need to try and understand the implications of the platitudes you are repeating. You said...

At least a dozen times I have said that I believe that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger because of the evidence and I have delineated what that evidence is. Dozens of times I have said a claim is not evidence that the claim is true, it is the evidence is what supports the claim that shows it is true.

And whenever I ask for this "evidence", you merely repeat "his life, his character, etc..." and the suchlike. Nothing that constitutes actual evidence.

Another straw man, completely unrelated to what I posted in that quote, which states that the older religions have been corrupted. At least argue against what I said, not what I never said.

You claim that certain religions are false. The argument you provide is that they were not revealed by "messengers of god". Seemingly the only basis for this claim is that their "message" is substantially different from what you are happy to accept.
Feel free to correct me and explain why you claim that Mesoamerican or Norse religions had no messenger, while Hinduism did.

Sure, the fact that the older religions have been corrupted by man

You still haven't provided any evidence or argument to show that religions have been "corrupted by man" from the original message.

The Baha'i Faith is a new religion and it also has protections that Baha'u'llah put in place to prevent corruption by man, so it has not been corrupted.

Why didn't god instruct the other messengers to put such protections in place? Given his omnipotence and omniscient it suggests he wanted them to be corrupted.

That's true when the religions are young and just becoming established, but that is not generally the case after the religion become established, and that is why we do not see many Jews or Christians converting to Islam now.

There was massive conversion to Christianity around the world over 1000 years after it was established.
Similarly, Islam gained many new members several centuries after Muhammad.
We don't see mass cultural conversions today because the days of colonialism and empire are over. However, the fall of communism saw large numbers of conversions to both Christianity and Islam (depending on the region).

Why would it matter if the followers are just as convinced? What people believe is not what makes a religion true since people are capable of believing just about anything.

And presumably you accept this applies to your beliefs just as much as it applies to yours?

My certainty comes from my own investigation and what is now in my own mind.

As does theirs. So why is yours different?

Baha'u'llah enjoined a true seeker to discover the truth ...
“The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude,

Two problems immediately.
1. Question begging - that there is "a path of faith", or that faith is better than reason.
2. "Certitude" is both impractical and unwise. Absolute certainly precludes considering alternatives. It shuts down enquiry and exploration. This why science never claims absolute certainty, only the best current explanation. We must always accept the possibility of new information that could change our position.

must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way.

Your man seems to be telling you to not question the "god explanation", and ignore any alternative presented.

inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

That is the opposite of "doing your own investigation". It is telling you to ignore anything that suggests an explanation other than god.

The irony of you presenting such a passage as evidence that you have considered all possible explanations is off the scale.

What it essentially says in bold italics at the end is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets.

So essentially "we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we undertake objective research. We must only accept what the messenger tells us".

In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do. We have to investigate the truth for ourselves.

But how can you investigate something without referring to what others have said and done?
Also, loving the irony of the "We must't follow what others say - Bahaullah said so"!

The way I know is that I have looked at the Baha'i Faith for over 51 years, so I have had plenty of time to investigate and confirm what I believed when I discovered the faith in 1970.

What you actually mean is that you converted to Bahaiism and ever since then all your "investigations" have been subject to confirmation bias and other forms of cognitive dissonance - as illustrated by your inability to provide any evidence that any god actually exists, never mind that there were ever any actual "messengers".

 

[samtonga43]

Another straw man, completely unrelated to what I posted in that quote, which states that the older religions have been corrupted.

Do you know that the "older religions have been corrupted". Because, if you do know this, you must also know what the original teachings were. Logic 101

What people believe is not what makes a religion true since people are capable of believing just about anything.

True.

What it essentially says in bold italics at the end is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do. We have to investigate the truth for ourselves.

So perhaps you should stop relying on the words of an imprisoned individual who believed he was taking dictation from God.

The way I know is that I have looked at the Baha'i Faith for over 51 years, so I have had plenty of time to investigate and confirm what I believed when I discovered the faith in 1970.

You have also had plenty of time to confirm your bias.[/QUOTE]

 

[1213]

There is no objective evidence though, even the claims we do have are subjective hearsay, written long after the events they purport to describe, and anonymously.

What do you think kingdom is? Is it not a system where people have one king and form one kingdom? If I and many others keep Jesus as our king, are we not kingdom? Why not?