Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

The exact wording is "all nations and all places". "All" is listed twice.

but it does not say ALL Jews.

 

[dybmh]

It is interesting that the New Testament says that all eyes shall see the return as Christ as well, even those passed on

The NT says a lot of things Tony. John 16:23 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you". Is it true? It says Amen,Amen in the greek text. To bad it's a lie and it doesn't work.

Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen

It's a future prophecy which may never come true. I know plenty of Jews who ignore Jesus and I expect they will continue to do so.

So how is All to be seen in these passages?

All is all. Complete. That's it.

I only offer that as a thought. I see we make a mistake of holding on to one word. It may be we miss the bigger picture. That's what I see anyway.

The other posters made a bold claim. I brought two sets of scripture which refute it. Nothing more nothing less.

I see we find it very hard to consider new frames of references, it has taken me years of deep reflection to begin making a change in my own self.

That cuts both ways, Tony.

 

[dybmh]

Do you have verses that support those claims?

Zecharia 9:9-10

 

[dybmh]

but it does not say ALL Jews.

In context it's the Jewish exiles.

 

[dybmh]

That would be how I would see that verse. The invitation to gather is given to all Nations and All places, the banishment has been cancelled.

Aknowledgement and acceptance of that Invitation to gather, does not necessarily mean one will move back to the place to stay, Why?

The verse says God will gather.

What if God, when he gathered all Jews from all nations and places, then says please disperse and spread the glad tidings of the 'Day of God'. Would not many then choose to again disperse, yet still know they are given their final home?

You need scripture to back this up, else it's just making things up.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's what Zecharia 9:9-10 is saying. It's scriptural prophecy that world peace will be accomplished in the Messiah's lifetime.

"he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,"

The verse does not say that world peace will be accomplished in the Messiah's lifetime.

Zechariah 9
King James Version

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

In context it's the Jewish exiles.

It does not say all Jewish exiles will return to Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

The "You" is all exiles.

only according to your interpretation.
The verse does not say all Jewish exiles will return to Israel.

 

[dybmh]

"he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,"

The verse does not say that world peace will be accomplished in the Messiah's lifetime.

Zechariah 9
King James Version

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

"his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

This describes world peace.

It does not say all Jewish exiles will return to Israel.

only according to your interpretation.
The verse does not say all Jewish exiles will return to Israel.

Your hyper literal approach to this scripture is noted. I thought that Baha'u'lah spoke against that.

 

[Trailblazer]

If 1 person is missing then it's not "all nations and all places". That's a direct word for word translation. Please refer to post#31.

Jeremiah 29
NIV
I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

It says: I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you.
It does NOT say I will gather all of you from all the nations and places where I have banished you.

The exact wording is "all nations and all places". "All" is listed twice. That emphasises that it will be all those who are exiled. The "You" is all exiles.

It does not say that the "You" is all exiles. That is just your personal interpretation.
If it is interpreted literally to mean all exiles then it would include those who were actually living when the exile occurred, not Jews who are living now.

 

[dybmh]

Jeremiah 29
NIV
I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

It says: I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you.
It does NOT say I will gather all of you from all the nations and places where I have banished you.

Yes, it does. All nations and all places includes everyone.

It does not say that the "You" is all exiles. That is just your personal interpretation.
If it is interpreted literally to mean all exiles then it would include those who were actually living when the exile occurred, not Jews who are living now.

Context.

 

[Trailblazer]

In context it's the Jewish exiles.

Then it would not include any Jews who were not exiled, so it would not include any Jews living today.

When were the Israelites exiled?

In terms of the Hebrew Bible, the term "Exile" denotes the fate of the Israelites who were taken into exile from the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century BCE, and the Judahites from the Kingdom of Judah who were taken into exile during the 6th century BCE.

Jewish diaspora - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

Then it would not include any Jews who were not exiled, so it would not include any Jews living today.

When were the Israelites exiled?

In terms of the Hebrew Bible, the term "Exile" denotes the fate of the Israelites who were taken into exile from the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century BCE, and the Judahites from the Kingdom of Judah who were taken into exile during the 6th century BCE.

Jewish diaspora - Wikipedia

The Jewish Diaspora is still a thing.

From your link:

The Jewish diaspora (Hebrew: תְּפוּצָה, romanized: təfūṣā) or exile (Hebrew: גָּלוּת gālūṯ; Yiddish: golus)[N 1] is the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancient ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe.​

 

[Ella S.]

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah’s writings reveal the word of God for this day and age. Baha’u’llah began writing tablets, letters, epistles and entire books in the 1850s, and that revelation continued until he left this world in 1892. Together, his writings constitute more than a hundred volumes. Never before has humankind received such a voluminous, powerful spiritual gift.

In 1912, while traveling and speaking in North America, Abdu’l-Baha characterized the scope and substance of Baha’u’llah’s writings. He said:

The Tablets of Baha’u’llah are many. The precepts and teachings they contain are universal, covering every subject. He has revealed scientific explanations ranging throughout all the realms of human inquiry and investigation—astronomy, biology, medical science, etc. In the [Book of Certitude] He has given expositions of the meanings of the Gospel and other heavenly Books. He wrote lengthy Tablets upon civilization, sociology and government. Every subject is considered. His Tablets are matchless in beauty and profundity. Even His enemies acknowledge the greatness of Baha’u’llah, saying He was the miracle of humanity.

Can you name 3 scientific discoveries made by Baha'u'llah that continue to be sustained by scientific consensus to this day?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it does. All nations and all places includes everyone.
Context.

Jeremiah 29
NIV
I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

The verse says Jews from all the nations and places, NOT all Jews from all nations and all places.
The verse does not say I will bring all of you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.

 

[Trailblazer]

"his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

This describes world peace.

Dominion is not world peace.

DOMINION, n. L. See Dominant.

1. Sovereign or supreme authority; the power of governing and controlling.

The dominion of the Most High is an everlasting dominion. Daniel 4.

2. Power to direct, control, use and dispose of at pleasure; right of possession and use without being accountable; as the private dominion of individuals.

3. Territory under a government; region; country; district governed, or within the limits of the authority of a prince or state; as the British dominions.

4. Government; right of governing. Jamaica is under the dominion of Great Britain.

5. Predominance; ascendant.

6. An order of angels.

Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers. Colossians 1.

7. Persons governed.

Judah was his sanctuary; Israel his dominion. Psalm 114.

DOMINION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Your hyper literal approach to this scripture is noted. I thought that Baha'u'lah spoke against that.

No, I am not the one who is interpreting the verse literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you name 3 scientific discoveries made by Baha'u'llah that continue to be sustained by scientific consensus to this day?

I am not that good with history so I will have to defer to @Truthseeker and @TransmutingSoul to answer that question.

 

[dybmh]

Jeremiah 29
NIV
I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

The verse says Jews from all the nations and places, NOT all Jews from all nations and all places.
The verse does not say I will bring all of you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.

Please refer to the word for word translation below. It says "all nations and all places". The NIV isn't a good translation. You don't need to read or understand Hebrew to follow the interlinear translation. All is listed twice.

 

[dybmh]

Dominion is not world peace.

DOMINION, n. L. See Dominant.

1. Sovereign or supreme authority; the power of governing and controlling.

The dominion of the Most High is an everlasting dominion. Daniel 4.

2. Power to direct, control, use and dispose of at pleasure; right of possession and use without being accountable; as the private dominion of individuals.

3. Territory under a government; region; country; district governed, or within the limits of the authority of a prince or state; as the British dominions.

4. Government; right of governing. Jamaica is under the dominion of Great Britain.

5. Predominance; ascendant.

6. An order of angels.

Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers. Colossians 1.

7. Persons governed.

If it wasn't world peace then it wouldn't be dominion.

Judah was his sanctuary; Israel his dominion. Psalm 114.

Yes, Israel (The house of Jacob) submitted to God's dominion.

DOMINION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

meh

No, I am not the one who is interpreting the verse literally.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

 

[Trailblazer]

He wasn't king so he doesn't fullfill the prophecy.

Revelation 19:16 King James Version

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Baha’u’llah claimed to be the King of kings referred to in Rev 19:16.

“Ye are but vassals, O Kings of the earth! He Who is the King of kings hath appeared, arrayed in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation; lest the things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven. Arise, and serve Him Who is the Desire of all nations, Who hath created you through a word from Him, and ordained you to be, for all time, the emblems of His sovereignty.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 5-6