Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[dybmh]

Baha’u’llah claimed to be the King of kings referred to in Rev 19:16.

But he wasn't a real anointed king. He just claimed it. No big whoop.

 

[Trailblazer]

It says "all nations and all places".

Jews from all nations and all places will return to Israel, but nowhere does it say all Jews will return to Israel.

 

[dybmh]

Jews from all nations and all places will return to Israel, but nowhere does it say all Jews will return to Israel.

If 1 person is missing then it's not "all nations and all places".

 

[Trailblazer]

But he wasn't a real anointed king. He just claimed it. No big whoop.

What is a real anointed king, what Jews believe he is? No, that is not the only interpretation.

Baha'u'llah fits the Christian definition of an anointed king.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, the anointing of a new king is considered a Sacred Mystery. The act is believed to empower him—through the grace of the Holy Spirit—with the ability to discharge his divinely appointed duties, particularly his ministry in defending the faith.

Anointing - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

If 1 person is missing then it's not "all nations and all places".

No, if one nation or place is missing it is not all nations and all places.
The verse says nothing about all people returning.

 

[dybmh]

What is a real anointed king, what Jews believe he is? No, that is not the only interpretation

When quoting Jewish scripture and talking about a Jewish messiah it's the Jewish interpretation that matters.

Baha'u'llah fits the Christian definition of an anointed king.

And maybe he is. I can live with that. It makes sense considering what he said about Jewish people that he wouldn't be our messiah.

of a new king is considered a Sacred Mystery. The act is believed to empower him—through the grace of the Holy Spirit—with the ability to discharge his divinely appointed duties, particularly his ministry in defending the faith.

Anointing - Wikipedia

That a post hoc rationalization because Jesus wasn't a real anointed king either.

 

[dybmh]

No, if one nation or place is missing it is not all nations and all places.
The verse says nothing about all people returning.

Right, if one place is missing, like my house, is missing. I'm an exile; I haven't been gathered. The prophecy is still not fulfilled. BTW I can trace my ancestry to Israel. My mother's side of the family are Levites.

 

[Truthseeker]

Can you name 3 scientific discoveries made by Baha'u'llah that continue to be sustained by scientific consensus to this day?

That is besides the point. Baha'u'llah didn't come to reveal science to us, we can do that by ourselves.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sounds rather circular, to me.

Aren't such 'messengers' as numerous as snowflakes in a blizzard? They're part of hundreds of different cults and religions, throughout the world. Mental hospitals are full of them.
How are we to decide which, if any, to believe?

You look at the "fruits". Did the person as far as you can tell live in such a way that it is likely he came to promote himself? Did the words he say inspire people to better behavior? Did He raise the people around him to better behavior? Did he sacrifice himself in some way to deliver the message? Or as a result of his message did he come into material riches or benefit himself in some way? When you look at the scriptures he supposedly revealed do they strike a chord inside you? Did he help create a better civilization?

 

[Truthseeker]

How do you know it's his writing's if he never went to school?

In addition to what @Trailblazer said while He didn't go to school, he was tutored at home to do basic reading and writing.

 

[Trailblazer]

When quoting Jewish scripture and talking about a Jewish messiah it's the Jewish interpretation that matters.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a Jewish Messiah, I believe that there is a Messiah who would come for all of humanity, not just for one people.

And maybe he is. I can live with that. It makes sense considering what he said about Jewish people that he wouldn't be our messiah.

What did Jesus say about the Jewish people?

That a post hoc rationalization because Jesus wasn't a real anointed king either.

There is no reason to think that the messiah would be the Jewish version of an anointed king.
That is just what you interpreted the scriptures to mean. I can read the same verses and come up with another meaning and a Christian will come up with another meaning.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right, if one place is missing, like my house, is missing. I'm an exile; I haven't been gathered. The prophecy is still not fulfilled. BTW I can trace my ancestry to Israel. My mother's side of the family are Levites.

So if even one Jew remains anywhere in the world besides Israel then the prophecy is not fulfilled?
I think that on some level you know that is unrealistic. There is not enough room in Israel for all the Jews in the world. That is not to mention that all Jews don't want to live in Israel.

 

[Truthseeker]

My point being is that when Baha'u'llah made the claim that he is the messiah for all the major religions, one of the success criteria or conditions, would be that the Jews realize that they are wrong about their interpretation of the Torah.

That would be needed for the claim he made to be considered true. Yet that doesn't seem to have happened, for whatever reason the Jews weren't convinced that Baha'u'llah were the messiah, despite whether they got the interpretation wrong or not. He ought to have been able to somehow convince them that they were wrong. Wouldn't you agree with that?

There's no reason to think that as far as I'm concerned. Many would eventually be convinced, but not now, and not all would be convinced eventually even. The same is true of all the other religions. Success would ultimately be a unified and peaceful world at some time in His Dispensation. It doesn't have to be right away. It would be unreasonable to expect any other result. The unified world doesn't have to all consist of Baha'is. The adherents of the religions just have to live in harmony. It would be unreasonable of me to expect all other religions to die out completely.

 

[dybmh]

So if even one Jew remains anywhere in the world besides Israel then the prophecy is not fulfilled?

yes

I think that on some level you know that is unrealistic. There is not enough room in Israel for all the Jews in the world. That is not to mention that all Jews don't want to live in Israel.

That's what makes it a miracle.

 

[Truthseeker]

But if we can't trust the interpretation of the Torah, meaning if they got it wrong, how or why would we expect them to interpret any of the prophecies correctly then?

It isn't about interpreting the prophecies correctly. It's understanding that the fruits of the Baha'i Faith are good. Evaluating Baha'u'llah correctly seldom starts with interpreting prophecies correctly.

 

[dybmh]

I do not believe there is any such thing as a Jewish Messiah, I believe that there is a Messiah who would come for all of humanity, not just for one people.

The Tanach prophecies are not fulfilled by Baha'u'lah.

What did Jesus say about the Jewish people?

No not Jesus, Baha'u'lah.

There is no reason to think that the messiah would be the Jewish version of an anointed king.

Sure there is. Zecharia 9:9-10

That is just what you interpreted the scriptures to mean. I can read the same verses and come up with another meaning and a Christian will come up with another meaning.

Why should I believe your interpretation is better than mine?

 

[Truthseeker]

Yet, if he made the claim that he was the messiah for the whole world, and that this could be expressed at any point in time, whether it was 5 years from he made the claim to 10000 years from now. I personally think that the claim is kind of weak, if we are to take it serious, because the conditions he have put forward are so vague that its almost pointless.

There will be a unified world within 1000 years. That's when His Dispensation will possibly end. I am not trying to convince you of anything. There's no reason for you believe any of this from what has been told you. You would have to investigate for yourself whether there is any credibility to Baha'u'llah's claim.

 

[Truthseeker]

Jesus said about the kingdom:

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

Because of those I think the Kingdom is formed of the people who are born anew, it comes when that happens to people. And I think it has been coming every day after Jesus preached his message. By words Jesus declared there can happen change in person so that he is born anew. And it means this:

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

...Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

From my point of view there is an inner Kingdom of God and an outer Kingdom of God both. Why did He say "Thy Kingdom come"? There was already an inner Kingdom, but in the future an outer Kingdom will be established.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is why it would be a miracle and good evidence that the anointed king is the messiah. It's not something anyone can just claim for themselves.

For the Baha'is to be correct, there should be four Messiahs predicted... Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Baha'is make a big deal out of 1844 being predicted by Daniel, but that was the Bab. It amazes me how people in these other religions can find "proof" and prophecies about their guy in the Bible. But then if their guy doesn't fit a particular prophecy, somehow that gets ignored. Like with prophecies about Jerusalem and Zion. Those are ignored. But if Mt. Carmel is mentioned, those they highlight and show pictures of their world headquarters in Haifa.

 

[Truthseeker]

Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile."

View attachment 63385

All the nations and places, not all Jews is my interpretation.