Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

Only men? In a faith purportedly for this age?

Only men on the UHJ, and there us a reason for that which will be revealed in due time.
Women serve on all the NSAs and all the other Baha'i institutions. Just because women don't serve on the UHJ that is not misogyny. Get a dictionary.

Definition of misogyny
: hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women
Definition of MISOGYNY

One does not need to ‘jump’ to reach the conclusion that this is sexist discrimination / misogyny.

Yes, they do have to jump to that conclusion since they do not know the real REASON women do not serve on the UHJ. That is a classic example of the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

You speak of the Light of God:
The Light of God is Jesus. Then, now, and forever. IMO

No, the Light of God comes through all the Messengers of God, then, now, and forever.
Your exclusivist Christian beliefs will never change God's Method of revealing Himself.

Imagine that, calling the Baha'i Faith discriminatory because women do not serve on 'one' of the Baha'i institutions. Christianity's belief that Jesus is the Only Way is the epitome of discrimination since it discriminates against every other religion in the world.

 

[Link]

Ambiguity is central to Bahai "proofs". It goes something on the lines:

The interpretation of others took it like this.
I say it means this.
There is more than one meaning, but since I am Prophet, I reveal the true meaning and so should be followed.

There is huge problems with this presentation. For example, day of judgment takes this form. Everyone understood it this way, I say it means this, accept my interpretation because I am a Prophet.

This while his interpretation is not only not what the Quran intends and it's obvious the day of judgment is something else, his interpretation is impossible by so many verses explaining this concept.

I will make a thread about this in detail.

If a person can't tell the problems, let me explain one of them.

This presentation uses circular reasoning. And now I understand why @InvestigateTruth uses this circular way of reasoning and circumstantial evidence way of speaking and their wrong interpretation of 3:7.

So most of Bahai scripture is circular reasoning emphasis.

It never disproves and shows impossible of why day of judgment should not be interpreted the way Muslims do.

It rather, relies on the circular reasoning that I presented.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah, I can't wait to see what Baha'is will do when they get control of the world.

That is not the aim CG, never has been with God. God' Dominion is our hearts in Faith.

To even offer this is a complete lack of understanding of the Message given by all Messengers, none of them what rule over this earth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I assumed the three onenesses were true when I first heard of the Baha'i Faith too. God is one. Man is one, And all the religions agree... But I was being too gullible back then. God? We can't even prove any God exists. Man is one? Sure, so let's build on that. What do we need to do to all get along? Hmmm? Dump religion? Because religion is a reason why people don't get along. Religions don't all agree.

Yes, that is all your choice CG.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They require proof. Quran is a proof for Mohammad (s), and so we have to see their scripture if a proof. To me, it fails. I've read some of their scriptures, and it's not a sign from God like Quran is. Quran is much higher in terms of eloquence, guidance, and just over all exalted features and nature.

Why is that some of the most respected and knowledgeable Mullah's of the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah do not agree with you?

One of those that accepted Baha'u'llah was the Shah 's chosen advisor in such matters. None was more knowledgeable, he had memorised over 30,000 Ahadith.

He left his memories of meeting Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Why is that some of the most respected and knowledgeable Mullah's of the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah do not agree with you?

One of these that accepted Baha'u'llah was the Shah 's chosen advisor in such matters. None was more knowledgeable, he had memorised over 30,000 Ahadith.

He left his memories of meeting Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Because they disbelieved. Not different then those who followed Samiri and worshiped a golden calf instead of sticking to the Lord of Haroun and Musa.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for your help.

What help were you looking for CG?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because they disbelieved. Not different then those who followed Samiri and worshiped a golden calf instead of sticking to the Lord of Haroun and Musa.

You know nothing of them, how can you make such accusations?

Can you see the arrogance is such an accusations?

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

You know nothing of them, how can you make such accusations?

Can you see the arrogance is such an accusations?

Regards Tony

I make the accusation because I know following a false leader or false Prophet, is not the same as following a true Prophet and a true leader from God.

And equating the Quran and any scripture from God, with writings that are not from God, is disbelief.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I make the accusation because I know following a false leader or false Prophet, is not the same as following a true Prophet and a true leader from God.

And equating the Quran and any scripture from God, with writings that are not from God, is disbelief.

But your accusations against them is your own stance, you do not know if your interpretations of Islam are correct. It may be ones own self that is following a God of their own thoughts.

Before you can accuse them, you have to know what they offered as to why they made a choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

But your accusations against them is your own stance, you do not know if your interpretations of Islam are correct. It may be ones own self that is following a God of their own thoughts.

Before you can accuse them, you have to know what they offered as to why they made a choice.

Regards Tony

They offered falsehood. This I know even if some of my interpretations of Islam are wrong.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If a person can't tell the problems, let me explain one of them.

This presentation uses circular reasoning. And now I understand why @InvestigateTruth uses this circular way of reasoning and circumstantial evidence way of speaking and their wrong interpretation of 3:7.

So most of Bahai scripture is circular reasoning emphasis.

It never disproves and shows impossible of why day of judgment should not be interpreted the way Muslims do.

It rather, relies on the circular reasoning that I presented.

@Link,

The Quran has two types of verses, as you already know.
The interpretation is also of two types.
One interpretation is Tafseer. It is explaining verses and their intention.
But another type of interpretation is called Taweel. This interpretation according to the Book of God is only known to God and His chosen ones. The story of Joseph makes this clear, and one of the things Surrah of Joseph teaches is, interpretation of future events can only be done by chosen ones of God.
To me, for example, when it is said, on the day of Resurrection the Dead is raised, the Taweel of this is, a new guidance comes. The Term "dead" and "Alive" in this case are symbols and their Taweel is "disbelievers", vs. "Believers". We already see examples of this in verses of the Quran. So, it is not just because Baha'u'llah says that, but also we see evidence. Moreover, Bahaullah did not have any significant education in religion, and yet He knew the Quran and Hadithes by heart. A clear evidence of Revelation.

 

[Trailblazer]

With both parts?

Yes.

It does. Especially of those morals are contradictory too those proposed by god.
I consider capital punishment to be immoral, especially if the method is intended to cause extreme suffering. God supports torturing people to death. Therefore my morality cannot come from god.
QED

God supports a just punishment for the crime committed.[/quote]
I do not consider capital punishment to be immoral when it is warranted. Capital punishment is too good for many murderers. The Baha'i Law states that those who are put to death will not incur a second penalty from God so they are really better off than those who get life in prison.

And yet, your answer to difficult issues is usually to ignore the arguments and simply quote scripture. That is the definition of blind adherence to dogma.

No, that is not what I do. I sometimes use scripture to support what I am explaining.

One does not need to be "god" to be able to predict certain outcomes.

You can only guess. One does need to be God to have perfect foreknowledge.

In which case, how is the Bahai's magic utopia to come about?

Nobody except God knows that, since nobody else can see into the future.
Why does it matter anyway? We live in the present, not in the future.

There's that blind adherence to dogma again.

"Exalted" des not mean "informed". It means "raised to the highest levels". "Magnify his testimony" also implies something beyond the ordinary. So it is saying that the message of Bahullah will be not just known by everyone on earth (pretty unlikely) but will be considered something important and meaningful (even less likely).

That is a good interpretation. I believe that will happen in the future.

And there he is saying that god's plan requires everyone to follow Bahaiism.

No, He is not saying that. Show me where He said that.

So if you know that Bahaiism is not the faith that will save the world and you would need to join a different one, why are you following it?

I do not know the future, I only know the present. I do not live in the future so I cannot join a religion that does not exist yet.

You just claimed that the only solution is for everyone to follow the same faith (one that has yet to be invented). You also just claimed that it will happen anyway, because god has ordained it. So there is no need to preach that message and you should all be concentrating on more practical, urgent issues.

I am not preaching the message, I am just responding to posts when I have time. I take care of all the practical and urgent issues all by myself with no help from my husband or anyone else.

But you clearly don't. As you stated earlier in this post...
"We have to go by what was written by Baha'u'llah"

You ripped what I said out of its context. I was saying that in order to know what is going to happen in the future, we have to go by what was written by Baha'u'llah, and then I posted what was written.

I try to follow what was written by Baha'u'llah, but I see both sides since I have a tendency to listen and question and analyze everything, rather than just believing everything because it is in scripture.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. Explain how...
Misogyny/sexist discrimination.
Homophobia/sexual intolerance.
Burning people alive as a punishment for arson.

Can help bring about global peace and unity.

First, what you stated is only your own opinion of the Baha'i Laws.
Second, Baha'i Laws are not for the purpose of bringing about global peace and unity.

In the passage below Baha'u'llah explained what will bring about global peace and unity:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6- 7

 

[Trailblazer]

In what way?

By not including the context.

I was not taking about inherited conditions, just congenital (meaning "from birth), so...

If a baby dies in agony from a congenital condition...The only way you can trace that back to God is if you say that God is responsible for ...that congenital condition.

So Abdulbaha is confirming that the congenital condition causing the baby to die in agony is god's responsibility.

A congenital disorder is a condition that is present from birth. Congenital disorders can be inherited or caused by environmental factors.

No, Abdu'l-Baha was not admitting that, I was doing the math so I concluded that.

Just as you are doing here. You want to absolve god of his responsibility for killing babies.

God does not kill babies, babies die. Lots of other people also suffer and die, that's the way God designed the material world. If you want to blame God at least blame Him for what He actually did.

Wait. So you are now accepting that god is responsible for the baby's agonising death?

Indirectly, God is responsible for all suffering and death that is not freely chosen by humans since God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering.

Storehouse of Suffering quote

Why harp on babies, God is also responsible for the suffering and death children and adults.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same thing.

Not the same at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how do you rationalise that?

"I" do not have to since I do not know more than a Messenger of God.

Erm, you just admitted that he excluded women from serving on the UHJ.

And you forgot to mention homophobia.
Do you deny that Bahaiism forbids homosexual relations, Bahaullah condemned it, and Shoghi Effendi described homosexuality as "shameful sexual aberration"?

You also forgot to address the issue of burning people to death.

Too bad you do not LIKE the Baha'i Laws. That is what this is all about, what YOU like and consider appropriate.

YOU know better than Baha'u'llah, who is a Messenger of God.
But if He is a Messenger of God it is logically impossible for you to KNOW MORE since nobody can know more than an all-knowing God.

If Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God anything goes but that does not mean what YOU believe is good for society is what is actually good. You don't set the standards, nor do the prevailing socially acceptable norms.

 

[Trailblazer]

What if Hinduism is the one true religion? How are you "covering that base"?

That is covered because Baha'is believe that Hinduism is a true religion of God.

Also, how does god feel about your Pascal's wager approach to belief?

I do not agree with it. Nobody should pretend to believe in God just to cover their bases, avoid hell and get to heaven. God knows what is in all our minds and hearts so pretending would not work anyway.

But you just said that you were "covering your bases"! That is not "sincerity".

Why isn't it sincerity? What does one have to do with the other?

 

[Trailblazer]

Seriously? Are you high?
You think the social changes in Northern Europe in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, caused by the effects of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution were "because of the Bab and Baha'u'llah"?
Dude, you have completely lost it!

These changes were 'stimulated' by the Holy Spirit which was released in the world by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
A similar thing happened when Jesus released the Holy Spirit into the world.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[CG Didymus]

Ambiguity is central to Bahai "proofs". It goes something on the lines:

The interpretation of others took it like this.
I say it means this.
There is more than one meaning, but since I am Prophet, I reveal the true meaning and so should be followed.

There is huge problems with this presentation. For example, day of judgment takes this form. Everyone understood it this way, I say it means this, accept my interpretation because I am a Prophet.

This while his interpretation is not only not what the Quran intends and it's obvious the day of judgment is something else, his interpretation is impossible by so many verses explaining this concept.

I will make a thread about this in detail.

When I first was told about the Baha'i Faith 50 years ago, I didn't know what the prophecies said, in Christianity nor in Islam or any other religion. I took what they told me as the truth. Once I read the Bible and the NT for myself, then I saw the ambiguity in their answers. But I do understand it for their perspective that the Baha'i teachings sound so good to them that they must be from God. To them, something minor, like fulfilling a prophecy exactly as written is not an issue. And they provide reason why their interpretation actually fits very well, because of the symbolic meanings within the prophecy. Clouds become veils that obscure the truth. Stars falling, the Sun and the moon, everything gets some symbolic meaning that, for Baha'is, makes sense of the prophecies. The one I complain about the most is how they make "Woe" to mean a manifestation... but only in the verses they want it to mean that. But giving the special meaning to the translated word. I wonder if they can do that with the Greek word that got translated as "Woe"?