Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[CG Didymus]

In which case, how is the Bahai's magic utopia to come about?

And there he is saying that god's plan requires everyone to follow Bahaiism.

Unless all the nations of the world agree to disarm, except for a few weapons to maintain order within their own borders, then how does the "Lesser Peace" happen? Then the "Most Great Peace"? That is what is troubling. They do want to rule the world and put "God's" laws into place. And then who's going to enforce those laws? God? No, it's going to be corruptible people. The leaders of the Baha'i Faith that have already shown tendencies to be authoritarian. Tattooing thieves on the face? Burning arsons? Why not torture people that commit crimes? Religious leaders in the past had people burned at the stake, so is this also possible under Baha'i rule? And what about those that don't believe in the Baha'i prophets? What do Baha'is do with them? Or people that want to partake in sex, drugs, alcohol and rock and roll? They'd be a threat to the "love" and "peace" of the rest of society. They'd have to be put away somewhere. Just how peaceful and unified is this Baha'i world going to be?

Same thing.

Yes, there is, supposedly, one true religion that got revealed... then got corrupted. And most of them had Scriptures that weren't accurate, because people wrote them, not the prophet. So, in the end, there is only one "true" religion, the Baha'i Faith. And whatever is true about the other religions is what the Baha'i writings say is true about them.

Like what's true about Isaac and Ishmael is not what the Jewish Bible says. They got it wrong, according to Baha'u'llah. He says that it was Ishmael taken to be sacrificed by Abraham... as if it was a true story and not a myth to begin with. Like with Buddhism. "Originally" taught about God. With Krishna and Buddha, they didn't literally mean people get reincarnated into a different body. With Christianity, there is no real Satan or hell or some sin that got inherited because of Adam eating some fruit.

I'm with you, the easier explanation for these things is that people made them up. Why do the Baha'i have to go back and "fix" these contradictions? Because they need all religions to fit into and be in conformity to what the Baha'i Faith says is true... that one God revealed all the religions. I don't see it. It sure looks like people invented all the different religions and the Gods that go with them... and then borrowed ideas and concepts from each other and added them into theirs.

What's so wrong with that? Baha'is could still pretend that they are the newest and truest of all the religions. Oh, and another thing that bothers me, is how dependent the Baha'i Faith is on Islam being true. Which is why, in many ways, the Baha'i Faith is liberal form of Islam. They lightened up on the laws and eased up on some of the beliefs and rituals.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you see sexist discrimination, homophobia and brutal barbarism as "wisdom"?
You will need to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Or are you like @Trailblazer and simply saying that "We have to go by what was written by Baha'u'llah"?

We do not have all knowing wisdom.

We do not know what is best for us. Thus God gives us guidance.

Human pride is our downfall, we think we know more than we do, we pride ourselves in knowledge.

There is nothing I can offer your cup is full.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Seriously? Are you high?
You think the social changes in Northern Europe in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, caused by the effects of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution were "because of the Bab and Baha'u'llah"?
Dude, you have completely lost it!

The other option could be some are yet to find it.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

"Those that do not show in their lives virtues, morals, justice and compassion are of a godless mindset."

And who is ever going to perfectly live according to God's virtues? Jesus has people that think lustfully to be already guilty of adultery. And those that hate to be guilty of murder. I don't know if being that perfect in thought and deed is even possible. But, as we all know, religious leaders are sometimes just as guilty as everybody else.

 

[CG Didymus]

Point me to those scriptures that promote intolerance and discrimination. You won't find them.

When it comes to the other religions, do Baha'is believe any of them belief and practice the Truth? I don't think Baha'is do. And that comes from the teachings found in the Baha'i writings. So, at best, a Baha'i should be nice to them, but, in the end, want to guide them out of the errors of their beliefs and lead them to the truth of the Baha'i Faith. Would that be something you'd say is true or would you add something to it to change it or clarify it?

But then there are cult religions that promote things that I doubt Baha'is would condone. You got to be intolerant of them, don't you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you reference the place where these verses are interpreted by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha, or Shoghi Effendi? Til then, I'll stay with the belief that the Baha'i interpretation of these verses is contrived and forced to make it fit

I would offer I am not here to change your mind CG. I can not do this for you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, tell me how it happened after Jesus came? Some Christians, I'm sure, were great, holy people, but how many? Then there were others that weren't so great. They fit into the "savagery" side of thing rather than some "pinnacle" of spirituality. And I'd guess that most people fall into the category of being "nominal" believers... even Baha'is.

You have the same material to work with as I have CG. I am not Herr to tell you anything, this is a thought.

“The Faith of the Blessed Beauty (Baha’u’llah) is summoning mankind to safety and love, to amity and peace; it hath raised up its tabernacle on the heights of the earth, and directeth its call to all nations. Wherefore, O ye who are God’s lovers, know ye the value of this precious Faith, obey its teachings, walk in this road that is drawn straight, and show ye this way to the people. Lift up your voices and sing out the song of the Kingdom. Spread far and wide the precepts and counsels of the loving Lord, so that this world will change into another world, and this darksome earth will be flooded with light, and the dead body of mankind will arise and live; so that every soul will ask for immortality, through the holy breaths of God.”

I can sing out the song, but I can not ask another to join the chior. "Spread far and wide the precepts and counsels of the loving Lord"

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The other option could be some are yet to find it.

Regards Tony

I thought this was about liberal socialistic thinking? I quoted things that had it going back hundreds of years. Just how long ago did this sunrise of the Baha'i Faith began to dawn? The early Christians shared everything in common. Native American tribes shared everything with the whole tribe. But then... Baha'is do have a situation... What you going to do with capitalism? Socialism is an evil thing in the minds of a lot of people. I know there is a quote about abolishing the extremes of wealth and poverty. But, as usual, how are Baha'i going to make that happen?

I know the answer, they aren't. The Baha'i answer is the world is going to fall apart and people are going to realize the only way to fix things is to apply all the things that Baha'u'llah has taught. So, Baha'is really don't have to do a thing. God's in control and is allowing everything to collapse. Serves people right for rejecting his messenger. But no... Baha'i are supposed to be doing something. What are those things? Are most Baha'is doing those things? Or just a few? Like get out of the cities and go off to far off lands and teach the Faith. Some did. What are the others doing?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or, the "light" of new thinking was already being talked about and the "prophets" took it and used it and claimed they came up with the ideas. And, I don't know, but others have commented on the wrong science being talked about in Baha'u'llah's writings. But again, God really had to put the knowledge of nuclear weapons into air for people to tap into? Oh, and biological weapons too. Why give people that are prone to doing evil the knowledge of how to make better ways to kill? Or that was all part of God's grand plan?

Maybe God gave free will, knows how we would use us and gives us guidance before we wipe ourselves from this planet.

I see God has all things under control, God knows how this is all unfolding, the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Bible and Quran are full of advice that there will be a time when we suffer great loss of humanity. 2/3rds from memory the Bible says, maybe 1/3?

God wants us to Love, find unity to work as one peoplewith one soul. Yet we have not chosen that path as yet.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I thought this was about liberal socialistic thinking? I quoted things that had it going back hundreds of years. Just how long ago did this sunrise of the Baha'i Faith began to dawn? The early Christians shared everything in common. Native American tribes shared everything with the whole tribe. But then... Baha'is do have a situation... What you going to do with capitalism? Socialism is an evil thing in the minds of a lot of people. I know there is a quote about abolishing the extremes of wealth and poverty. But, as usual, how are Baha'i going to make that happen?

I know the answer, they aren't. The Baha'i answer is the world is going to fall apart and people are going to realize the only way to fix things is to apply all the things that Baha'u'llah has taught. So, Baha'is really don't have to do a thing. God's in control and is allowing everything to collapse. Serves people right for rejecting his messenger. But no... Baha'i are supposed to be doing something. What are those things? Are most Baha'is doing those things? Or just a few? Like get out of the cities and go off to far off lands and teach the Faith. Some did. What are the others doing?

I have to go to work CG. All the answers are there, the reply I gave is in the Baha'i Writings. We are told how at the birth of a Faith the power of the Word creates all things new.

That is why we already live with a new heaven and a new earth, as the old things have passed away.

Happens with every revelation, yet this is the 'Day of God' when God dwells amongst us.

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!'"

The change is the new creation, new thoughts new aspirations, the apex of out abilities can be found in what Baha'u'llah has offered.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I would offer I am not here to change your mind CG. I can not do this for you.

Regards Tony

Another great non-answer. But it makes me wonder how deeply Baha'is really research these things and find reasons and interpretations in the Baha'i writings that convinces them to believe? I just find a few verses, like "the second Woe has ended and the third Woe is coming quickly." Oh, that must mean the second Woe is the Bab, because Baha'u'llah came quickly. But what about all the rest of that stuff written about what will happen during those Woes?

Now here is what is important... If Baha'is can't and don't have an answer to that, then don't go around saying how it is so obvious how these prophecies have been fulfilled. And I expect the same from Christians with their one verse prophecy about the virgin birth. But they can't tie in the rest of Isaiah 7 to Jesus. Baha'is are doing the same thing. One or two verses are quoted, and that is all you need to run with it and say, "See, see how clearly this predicts the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah?" No, not if you ignore the rest of the verses.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe God gave free will, knows how we would use us and gives us guidance before we wipe ourselves from this planet.

I see God has all things under control, God knows how this is all unfolding, the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Bible and Quran are full of advice that there will be a time when we suffer great loss of humanity. 2/3rds from memory the Bible says, maybe 1/3?

God wants us to Love, find unity to work as one peoplewith one soul. Yet we have not chosen that path as yet.

Regards Tony

Ironically, some people have come together and have accepted one another by dumping their religion. Very few religions really cause peace and unity between people of different religions. Baha'is can potentially do that. My complaint is that Baha'is do that by telling the people that their old beliefs are wrong. That will work... when they agree with you. But what about those that believe that their religion is the truth? They are going to defend their beliefs and say that your religion, the Baha'i Faith, is false.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ironically, some people have come together and have accepted one another by dumping their religion. Very few religions really cause peace and unity between people of different religions. Baha'is can potentially do that. My complaint is that Baha'is do that by telling the people that their old beliefs are wrong. That will work... when they agree with you. But what about those that believe that their religion is the truth? They are going to defend their beliefs and say that your religion, the Baha'i Faith, is false.

You get to see if they got it all right CG. I can only offer what Baha'u'llah has on this topic, that forms my views.

Do you think humanity, as a whole, to date has got what the purpose of Faith right?

I see many know of the potential and have tried to implement that potential, yet as a whole humanity has yet to find that capacity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Another great non-answer. But it makes me wonder how deeply Baha'is really research these things and find reasons and interpretations in the Baha'i writings that convinces them to believe? I just find a few verses, like "the second Woe has ended and the third Woe is coming quickly." Oh, that must mean the second Woe is the Bab, because Baha'u'llah came quickly. But what about all the rest of that stuff written about what will happen during those Woes?

Now here is what is important... If Baha'is can't and don't have an answer to that, then don't go around saying how it is so obvious how these prophecies have been fulfilled. And I expect the same from Christians with their one verse prophecy about the virgin birth. But they can't tie in the rest of Isaiah 7 to Jesus. Baha'is are doing the same thing. One or two verses are quoted, and that is all you need to run with it and say, "See, see how clearly this predicts the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah?" No, not if you ignore the rest of the verses.

I did not accept Baha'u'llah because of prophecy, I have offered that is just icing on the cake for me.

The Oneness of God and Humanity was what sparked my interest CG.

The power of this Message in unequalled in all history, no previous Messenger has adressd all the rulers and peoples of the world, no false prophet has likewise done this.

Baha'u'llah's Letters to all the Rulers and all humanity serve as a great proof of the power and Sovereignty of Baha'u'llah. While a prisoner, he conquered the world.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Ironically, some people have come together and have accepted one another by dumping their religion. Very few religions really cause peace and unity between people of different religions. Baha'is can potentially do that. My complaint is that Baha'is do that by telling the people that their old beliefs are wrong. That will work... when they agree with you. But what about those that believe that their religion is the truth? They are going to defend their beliefs and say that your religion, the Baha'i Faith, is false.

To me all this is irrelevant.

Whoever is sent by God has to be accepted and recognized. The question is simple. Is their Prophets sent by God.

They require proof. Quran is a proof for Mohammad (s), and so we have to see their scripture if a proof. To me, it fails. I've read some of their scriptures, and it's not a sign from God like Quran is. Quran is much higher in terms of eloquence, guidance, and just over all exalted features and nature.

But aside from that, I find it really bad speech and a way God definitely won't speak. For example, interpreting Seal of Prophets not only is done in a bad way that doesn't make sense, the tone is so desperate and speaks of desperate irrationality from the speaker. Quran is spoken with might and strength that creation cannot imitate. In Kitab Itqaan, when talking about Seal of Prophets, is shows weakness and desperateness aside from the explanation not making sense and it being sophistry with language.

And same with how it explained day of judgment. It's desperation tone. While Quran has a compassionate tone, but yet a very strong exalted mighty tone, that no one can deny.

Bab writtings were a bit better and more assertive, but even they conjecture too much and too much of is not eloquent but speaks of uncalculated speech of creation.

Quran is so calculative as I've been showing in signs of eloquence of Quran thread. If it mentions Elyas (a) only two times in two surahs with his name (alludes to him other places of courses and he is the witness from Bani-ISrael who testified to Mohammad (S) per hadiths), it's purposeful.

If Talut (a) is mentioned only in Surah Baqara just like fasting and other unique features of Surah Baqara, there is a purpose to that. Everything is so calculated and perfectly placed and to me, this can't be words of humans, who would speak in a way that is not that calculative.

There is Thirteen chapters with reward reply concerning Mohammad's (s) motives, and each of them are perfectly placed in a surah that is best suited for it. This is so calculative. While creation would screw this up somehow and would've said one of the phrases in a place not perfectly suited for it. Humans screw up. There is always room for improvement. While there is not in this example. All of 13 chapters has a perfectly placed calculative way of replying concerning reward. And all of them of course (reward verses) contextualize each other.

This nature is exalted and mind boggling to me. I've show so far in that thread two of these reward verses and why they appear in the Surah they do phrased in that way.

The precision of all words in Quran perfectly placed, humans cannot do. This in contrast to desperate speech in kitbal Itqaan and I can phrase how to interpret seal of Prophets in more assertive way that is less desperate and more eloquent. So to me it fails the test.

 

[CG Didymus]

We do not know what is best for us. Thus God gives us guidance.

As if what is believed to be "God's" guidance is really God's guidance or just some made up stuff some religious leaders made up. Like... "Have sex outside of marriage? Or do work on the Sabbath? God says you must be stoned to death." Was it really God or just the religious leaders making laws, then attributing them to God, that they thought were needed to maintain order in their society? At some point there was the last person stoned to death for doing something wrong. Then from then on the law, supposedly God's law, was never enforced again? And... was the law ever successful in getting people to do the "right" thing? Not with fooling around. The threat of death didn't stop people from doing something that all people do and long to do, get laid. And who created people with the sex urge? Who made people with all kinds of hormones to get them all excited about doing it? Supposedly God... then he says but don't do unless you're married or I'll have you put to death? Yeah, I don't think God really said that.

But Baha'is probably do. Because God is still against sex unless the people are married... and to each other. At least God doesn't order them killed and only imposes a fine. Which isn't too bad... if you got the money... you can mess around all you want. But what are Baha'is going to do with poor people that get caught fooling around? Put them in jail? Get them fixed? Send them to therapy for their "spiritual" disease of liking and wanting to have sex? Where they can get into a group along with gays and lesbians and talk about their problems of abusing God's moral laws? Ah, I can't wait to see what Baha'is will do when they get control of the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

To me all this is irrelevant.

Whoever is sent by God has to be accepted and recognized. The question is simple. Is their Prophets sent by God.

They require proof. Quran is a proof for Mohammad (s), and so we have to see their scripture if a proof. To me, it fails. I've read some of their scriptures, and it's not a sign from God like Quran is. Quran is much higher in terms of eloquence, guidance, and just over all exalted features and nature.

But aside from that, I find it really bad speech and a way God definitely won't speak. For example, interpreting Seal of Prophets not only is done in a bad way that doesn't make sense, the tone is so desperate and speaks of desperate irrationality from the speaker. Quran is spoken with might and strength that creation cannot imitate. In Kitab Itqaan, when talking about Seal of Prophets, is shows weakness and desperateness aside from the explanation not making sense and it being sophistry with language.

And same with how it explained day of judgment. It's desperation tone. While Quran has a compassionate tone, but yet a very strong exalted mighty tone, that no one can deny.

Bab writtings were a bit better and more assertive, but even they conjecture too much and too much of is not eloquent but speaks of uncalculated speech of creation.

Quran is so calculative as I've been showing in signs of eloquence of Quran thread. If it mentions Elyas (a) only two times in two surahs with his name (alludes to him other places of courses and he is the witness from Bani-ISrael who testified to Mohammad (S) per hadiths), it's purposeful.

If Talut (a) is mentioned only in Surah Baqara just like fasting and other unique features of Surah Baqara, there is a purpose to that. Everything is so calculated and perfectly placed and to me, this can't be words of humans, who would speak in a way that is not that calculative.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Link]

Thanks for your help.

You welcome.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not accept Baha'u'llah because of prophecy, I have offered that is just icing on the cake for me.

I don't see it as "icing". What good are the prophecies if they are too vague to prove anything? Instead, they become a barrier. A person that takes them seriously, won't believe. A person that doesn't take them very literally, and is okay with out of context verses being used as prophecies, accepts the prophet. That ain't right. If it says the prophet will do this, come from here, and this will happen in this year, that should be what happens. And that is exactly what Baha'is claim. But when I check out those prophecies, they aren't all that exact. There is always problems. So, nothing is clear and obvious.

The Oneness of God and Humanity was what sparked my interest CG.

I assumed the three onenesses were true when I first heard of the Baha'i Faith too. God is one. Man is one, And all the religions agree... But I was being too gullible back then. God? We can't even prove any God exists. Man is one? Sure, so let's build on that. What do we need to do to all get along? Hmmm? Dump religion? Because religion is a reason why people don't get along. Religions don't all agree.

 

[Link]

Ambiguity is central to Bahai "proofs". It goes something on the lines:

The interpretation of others took it like this.
I say it means this.
There is more than one meaning, but since I am Prophet, I reveal the true meaning and so should be followed.

There is huge problems with this presentation. For example, day of judgment takes this form. Everyone understood it this way, I say it means this, accept my interpretation because I am a Prophet.

This while his interpretation is not only not what the Quran intends and it's obvious the day of judgment is something else, his interpretation is impossible by so many verses explaining this concept.

I will make a thread about this in detail.