Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

If it cannot be proven as a fact, you might be wrong. If you cannot accept this, you are more irrational than I thought.

You and KWED have to make this about right and wrong. Whether God exists or not is not about who is right and who is wrong, that is ego.

No, I do not accept that God might not exist because I have absolute certitude of His Reality. You cannot take that away from me, no matter how hard you might try, because it was conferred upon me by God through Baha'u'llah.

I do not need God to be proven as a fact in order to know that God exists. Any God that could be proven as a fact would not be God.

 

[samtonga43]

There is no lack of logic.

Tb. It is a possibility that God does not exist.
Tb. I know that God exists.

The above two statements are logically incompatible

 

[Trailblazer]

You said that your belief (opinion) is not a fact. This seems to imply that your belief is equivalent to your opinion.

My belief is a kind of opinion. It is the kind of opinion that is not based upon fact, although certain facts led me to believe what I do.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb. It is a possibility that God does not exist.
Tb. I know that God exists.

The above two statements are logically incompatible

No, they are not logically incompatible. Try to figure out why and if you can't I will tell you.

 

[samtonga43]

No, I do not accept that God might not exist

So when you said that It is a possibility that God does not exist, you were...
Wrong?
Mistaken?
Irrational?

 

[samtonga43]

My belief is a kind of opinion. It is the kind of opinion that is not based upon fact, although certain facts led me to believe what I do.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

“Many people believe God exists”. This is a fact.
"I think God exists." This is an opinion.
"God exists." This is a belief.

 

[samtonga43]

No, they are not logically incompatible. Try to figure out why and if you can't I will tell you.

I don't need you to tell me why these two statements are logically compatible, because I know they are not. Logic 101.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you admit that in this great utopia of global peace and unity, there will be an elite ruling class based on membership of a religion, and the majority will be disenfranchised and without representation.
So basically, oppressive theological totalitarianism.
Sounds perfect. Can't understand why everyone hasn't already signed up.

Tony said no such thing. As usual you created a straw man.

People who are not Baha'is cannot vote in Baha'i elections because one has to be a Baha'i to vote in a Baha'i election. That is no different than saying that one has to be a United States citizen to vote in a United States election.

 

[Trailblazer]

“Many people believe God exists”. This is a fact.
"I think God exists." This is an opinion.
"God exists." This is a belief.

Correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Christians , Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc all believe that they are following gods laws - exactly as you do.
And they all claim that the others are wrong, just as you do.

So what? That does not mean they are right and the others are wrong.
What people believe has no bearing on what is actually true or false.

1. You don't believe that god or Bahaullah is "an authority"?
2. You don't believe that Bahaullah's writings are true?

Doesn't sound like you are a Bahai then.

A dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by humans as incontrovertibly true.

Baha'u'llah was human but also divine. He had the authority to speak for God because that authority was given to Him by God.

By contrast, the men who created Church doctrines did not have any authority given to them by God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Actually, Baha'is have said that they don't really "convert" people to the Faith, they find people that already agree and believe in the things taught in the Baha'i Faith.

If you haven't noticed..i agree with their teaching, the teaching i have read so far anyway

 

[Trailblazer]

But his character, his writings, his message!

What was his character, his writings, his message?
He did not have what Baha'u'llah had. All one has to do is investigate in order to realize that.

And what about all the followers and people prepared to die for that belief? And what about his prophecies?

Having many followers is not what makes a belief true. that would be the fallacy of ad populum.
He fulfilled no prophecies for the return of Christ or the Messiah. He couldn't have since Baha'u'llah fulfilled them.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you now admit that religious belief can be dogma.

A religious belief can be based upon dogma and that is true of Christian belief..

You have repeatedly stated that you have to follow Bahaullah's writings.
But then you have also claimed that you disagree with him on some things, despite knowing he is right.

I do not have to follow Baha'u'llah's Writings, I choose to follow them.
But following them is not the same as accepting them without any doubts. A person can try to do what they believe is right in spite of having doubts.

 

[Trailblazer]

What Baha'is don't seem to realize is that because of us, their threads have become very successful. Not at proving anything, because they can't, but at getting a large number of posts.

I know that only too well , as I lose sleep trying to answer all these posts.

 

[CG Didymus]

But you also say that you know that God exists. Can you explain the lack of logic here?

It's way too general just to say "God" exists. Which God exists? The Gods of other people in other religions has been very knowable and has shown themselves to be real. Even the God that Baha'is claim is real, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, showed himself real by "great signs and wonders." But Baha'is don't believe those things really happened. Same when we include things in the NT, like God speaking from heaven and raising Jesus from the dead.

And I can understand that. Those things sound mythical. But when Baha'is define their version of God as unknowable and invisible and unprovable objectively, how is that not just as mythical? I know Christians and Baha'is that have experienced God. They've heard his still and quiet voice, or heard God speak to their heart. They've felt his presence or have seen an angel sent by God. Or, for the Baha'is, have seen Abdul Baha'. Funny, but people seem to see and feel the very God they that they believe in but deny the vision that other people have of their version of God. It makes it hard to know who's nuts and who's for real.

Or, maybe with most people it's neither one. People just see things and have dreams and get visions of things that they believe in. Like Native Americans having visions of spirit animals that guide them and talk to them that the Great Spirit has sent to them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then belief in a creator God is at least one of the dogmas of the Baha'i faith.

In my opinion.

"strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down..." That is what concerns me. The basic things, love everyone, don't be prejudice and so on, that's fine. And that's what I heard the most from Baha'is. But then when I learned of some of the other laws, then I got worried. Because the way the Baha'i Faith was taught to me was that one day it would be the government of the whole planet. One religion, one people etc. All the religions that have a lot of laws, that were supposedly given to the prophet by God, don't sound like they came from a God at all... But from the religious leaders.

Baha'is don't have God ordering that adulterers, fornicators, homosexuals and other people and behaviors that God allegedly hates, get stoned to death. But God still hates them. Killing the offenders didn't work. And if everyone who committed one or more of these offences was put to death, I wonder who'd be left alive? But now God has eased up on the penalties? Fool around and you've got to pay a fine. A guy with a guy or a woman with another woman and go get your head examined and brain fixed so it knows who to make love to and who not to.

In a Baha'i world, how is "strict" observance of the Baha'i moral laws going to be enforced? No dating, no kissing, no touching until married? I just googled "penalty for rape and child abuse in the Baha'i laws" but nothing came up. So, I wonder what that is?

Oh well, I don't see a happy, loving, peaceful world where those kinds of laws are still needed. And unless people become way more spiritual, I think those laws will fail to prevent people from doing all those things that God says he hates. And if people are doing those things, what is Baha'i leadership going to do? Strict enforcement of the laws?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then belief in a creator God is at least one of the dogmas of the Baha'i faith.

In my opinion.

That is not a dogma, it is a belief.

Definition of dogma

1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet. b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma. c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.
Dogma Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

[Trailblazer]

A flat earth-er would say exactly the same. You are seeing straw men where there are none.

The straw man was referring to this:

You have just explained that you are simply exercising your ability to reject reality, logic and reason when it doesn't suit your existing beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

So when you said that It is a possibility that God does not exist, you were...
Wrong?
Mistaken?
Irrational?

Neither one.

 

[danieldemol]

That is not a dogma, it is a belief.

Definition of dogma

1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet. b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma. c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.
Dogma Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

It is both a dogma and a belief.
It matches a) a definitive authoritative tenet.

By the way all the other dictionary definitions of dogma given are still valid, you dont get to cherry pick the meaning that suits you then have us believe all the other definitions given are invalid.

In my opinion.