Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[KWED]

Were does it say that non-Baha'i will have a vote in any hypothetical "most great peace" in the Baha'i writings?

Forgive me for not taking your word that it has been covered.

In my opinion.

We need to remember that Bahaullah couldn't clearly express god's intentions and requirements. We need to consult @TransmutingSoul for that.

 

[KWED]

My guess will be that eventually the governments of the elected world legislative will turn to the Universal of Justice for Guidance. As the faith grows and becomes a majority in some locations, then the local communities will end up transitioning from Local Spiritual Assemblies to local houses of justice and then adjudicate on Baha'i Law, for those that are Baha'i. Those that are the minority in that town will still be subject to and living under National or state law, to which the Baha'i will also be subject to.

WADR, this is beyond delusional. It's like you have never been aware of any history, politics, sociology, religious studies, etc. It's almost as if you are basing your entire worldview on a fantasy novel.

 

[KWED]

Yes, you are correct with this quote, it is about the minorities that come under the umbrella of the teachings and laws of Baha'u'llah.

I would think it fair to assume, that if you are not a Baha'i, that you would not want to be subject to Baha'i Law? Is that Correct?

If so, I am offering that is the case, well into the future, those that are not a Baha'i and all Baha'i will have to obey the laws of the land. It is only the Baha'i, as each governments allows, that will be subjected to Baha'i law in addition to the laws of the land, if they have not been made the same.

This already happens around the world, in some minor ways.

Regards Tony

So under this great, universal world Bahai government, there will be two sets of laws running side by side, each applicable to one social group.
1. Who sets the "non-Bahai" laws?
2. How the **** would it work?!

 

[KWED]

Politically, I do not know what will happen in the future and I don't think there is any clearly laid out plan for the New World Order. Maybe @Truthseeker or @TransmutingSoul know something I don't.

Meanwhile, here is an interesting perspective on what is envisioned by some Baha'is.

What Does the “New World Order” Mean?

I notice that Bahaullah said the current order will go and the NWO be in place "soon".
That was a century and a half ago.
The world is moving towards more individual and separate statehood and autonomy than existed 150 years ago, not less.

Why was he so wrong?

 

[KWED]

How about we Imagine a village where love and service dominate, where all have a fair chance at education and necessities of life.

Sort of like a secular liberal socialist democracy along Scandinavian lines? They seem to fit your utopian ideal better than any faith-based society.

Look, I can understand why Bahaullah's dream sounded appealing to the downtrodden masses of 19th century Middle East, but there are better systems already in place that don't require we abandon rational thought.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The 'approaching' calamity?

Shoghi Effendi, in the official Writings, offers that Calamity will visit us before we will establish the Lesser Peace. There will have to be a reconstruction.

"... Adversity, prolonged, worldwide, afflictive, allied to chaos and universal destruction, must needs convulse the nations, stir the conscience of the world, disillusion the masses, precipitate a radical change in the very conception of society, and coalesce ultimately the disjointed, the bleeding limbs of mankind into one body, single, organically united, and indivisible.

World Commonwealth

To the general character, the implications and features of this world commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage, agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already referred in my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this consummation will, by its very nature, be a gradual process, and must, as Bahá’u’lláh has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will themselves establish. This momentous and historic step, involving the reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness, will bring in its wake the spiritualization of the masses, consequent to the recognition of the character, and the acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh—the essential condition to that ultimate fusion of all races, creeds, classes, and nations which must signalize the emergence of His New World Order..."

No one knows how long this will take, but to know it is written these days are shortened so we do not totally destroy ourselves.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

"Bahá’u’lláh declared the coming of the Most Great Peace. All the nations and peoples will come under the shadow of the Tent of the Great Peace and Harmony -- that is to say, by general election a Great Board of Arbitration shall be established, to settle all differences and quarrels between the Powers; so that disputes shall not end in war. Abdu’l-Bahá, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 29-30

I will review the context of that quote, on the surface it does seem to indicate that the general population will have a say in establishing the court of arbitration,

Sounds good on paper... But as we all know elections have their problems. So, how many people are going to actually vote in this "general" election? Will large nations have equal say as a small nation as to who gets voted into this "great" board? Are all the people of the world all going to vote for just anybody? Or will there be "qualified" pre-screen candidates? Or... is each nation going to vote for a representative that then votes for who gets put on this board?

And, really, all people and all nations are going to submit to the decision of this "great" board? As we see in the U.S. right now, the country is divided between the right and left. People don't trust the elections. Those in power can jerrymander voting districts and make laws restricting voting and challenging the results the vote and put into power justices that can interpret the laws in a way to favor one side. With this great board there's a lot riding on who gets put on it. The rich and powerful people and nations, I think will somehow make sure the "right" people get put on it.

Oh, not that I know for sure, but I've heard that even in UHJ voting in the Baha'i Faith, somehow, people from the World Teaching Center get voted into the UHJ. And if I was in a high place of leadership in the Faith, I would want to make sure the right person gets voted in also. But... if that is happening, why not just appoint the people that they want into the UHJ? Like in some countries, the election is just for show. Everybody knows who's going to win. And I know, Tony, it's just a coincidence. The elections are true and fair.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sounds good on paper... But as we all know elections have their problems. So, how many people are going to actually vote in this "general" election? Will large nations have equal say as a small nation as to who gets voted into this "great" board? Are all the people of the world all going to vote for just anybody? Or will there be "qualified" pre-screen candidates? Or... is each nation going to vote for a representative that then votes for who gets put on this board?

Why worry about that, we do not even know how many people will make it through to the lesser peace?

Now is our time to stand up and be counted as a soul that assisted in being a peacemaker. No matter how one chooses to do it, we have to become lovers of humanity, "the Earth is but One Country and Mankind its Citizens".

And, really, all people and all nations are going to submit to the decision of this "great" board? As we see in the U.S. right now, the country is divided between the right and left. People don't trust the elections. Those in power can jerrymander voting districts and make laws restricting voting and challenging the results the vote and put into power justices that can interpret the laws in a way to favor one side. With this great board there's a lot riding on who gets put on it. The rich and powerful people and nations, I think will somehow make sure the "right" people get put on it.

After we nearly nearly destroyed ourselves, we will be looking for a mutual path to unity and a new purpose in life CG.

It is apparent that talking and offering Peace, in a peaceful and loving manner, does not change people. Without clamity, it appears people will not change, but when calamity visits, look how many people come out and help each other.

That is what Baha'is are currently focused on at a community level, building the capacity to serve each other at community level, all the while focused on a global unified effort to unite all people, of all nations, classes, gender and religions.

Oh, not that I know for sure, but I've heard that even in UHJ voting in the Baha'i Faith, somehow, people from the World Teaching Center get voted into the UHJ. And if I was in a high place of leadership in the Faith, I would want to make sure the right person gets voted in also. But... if that is happening, why not just appoint the people that they want into the UHJ? Like in some countries, the election is just for show. Everybody knows who's going to win. And I know, Tony, it's just a coincidence. The elections are true and fair

You are not listening to the right people if that is what you heard.

Yes, you get to choose who you listen to CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I am going already on monday next week

Good for you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are good at building castles (in air). Kudos.
In India even the marriage of a dog may also become a festive occasion.
All about a paw-wedding! Dogs married off in Uttar Pradesh's Hamirpur

Yes men are indeed capable of doing strange things.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no evidence that message of Christianity or Islam or Judaism is substantially different to that in their original scriptures.
Also, by the same token, Bahaullah is just a man changing the teachings of the past to fit his time and place.

Yeah, how do we get anything better than what the NT authors told us? If things were wrong, then they got it wrong. Which very well could be the case. But then did they make up things and embellish some of the stories? If they did, then is Christianity, even from the very start, a true religion from a God or just a man-made religion based on legends and traditions of a guy claiming to be the Jewish Messiah?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, how do we get anything better than what the NT authors told us? If things were wrong, then they got it wrong. Which very well could be the case. But then did they make up things and embellish some of the stories? If they did, then is Christianity, even from the very start, a true religion from a God or just a man-made religion based on legends and traditions of a guy claiming to be the Jewish Messiah?

Baha'u'llah has foreseen the quandaries CG.

"What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied."

Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 29

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You are good at building castles (in air). Kudos.
In India even the marriage of a dog may also become a festive occasion.
All about a paw-wedding! Dogs married off in Uttar Pradesh's Hamirpur

I'm sure they didn't do this, but the reality is that they could say, "All of you, no matter what caste, religion or whatever belief you think you have, is wrong. The Baha'i Faith is what's right and true. So, it's high time that you all forget your petty differences and work together to make your communities better."

And isn't that what the British did to the people of India? "You guys in your different religious beliefs and castes are all wrong. We have brought you the truth... Christianity as taught by the Anglican Church (or whichever denomination). Baha'is don't force their ways, I hope, on them, but inside, they have to believe that they, the Baha'is, have the truth and little by little they'd like to impart that on the people and get them to reject their old religious beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's just your opinion. They will disagree and say the same about your beliefs.
To paraphrase Stephen Roberts... "When you understand why you dismiss other beliefs, you will understand why I dismiss yours".

Yes, Baha'i know that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a fraud, because he has no proof, only his word... and his mission, and his character, and his writings, which all don't make him the Mahdi or the return of Jesus. But it does for the Mirza who took the title "Baha'u'llah"?

Even if god laid down the laws, it is still dogma if we are required to unquestioningly follow them.

That's what the definition sounds like to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, Baha'i know that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a fraud, because he has no proof, only his word... and his mission, and his character, and his writings, which all don't make him the Mahdi or the return of Jesus. But it does for the Mirza who took the title "Baha'u'llah"?

You are free to post what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad offered all humanity CG, that was not already given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The only people calling Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a fraud, is not the Baha'i. I would offer I do not accept his claim. He may very well believe otherwise, but I would offer Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mistaken and let others make their own decisions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's what the definition sounds like to me.

Free will submission unto the Messenger and God's Laws, is Faith CG.

"Consider the pettiness of men's minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You claim that god's existence is not a fact and cannot be proven. Therefore it must be possible that god does not exist. That is a simple fact, not my opinion.

That's true. It is possible that God does not exist since it cannot be proven that God exists.
No, that is not your opinion, it is a logical deduction.

If you then claim that there is no doubt that god definitely does exist, despite admitting than he might not, then you are being irrational and illogical.

I never said "there is no doubt that god definitely does exist."
I said I have no doubt that God definitely does exist.
Those are two different statements that have two different meanings.

Of course, you can believe god exists, but you cannot claim any certainty.

I a not claiming that God exists with certainty or any other way, I am simply stating that I am certain that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

You say that the key difference is that opinion is based on fact or knowledge while belief isn't. Did you even read your definitions?

"Belief... the state of mind...with or without there being empirical evidence"
"Opinion...a view...not necessarily based on fact or knowledge"

They are saying the same thing!

The words do not mean 'exactly' the same thing and that is why there are two words.

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Belief - Wikipedia

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search

A belief is a state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case whereas an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something. That is the difference between the two.

You are correct in saying that either a belief or an opinion can be based upon fact or knowledge or empirical evidence, but not necessarily. For example, my Baha'i beliefs are based upon facts and knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how do you "know" without doubt, that a god exists?
(This is where you describe a belief/opinion)

This is where I describe what I believe happened to me, the reason I am certain. It is not a fact, it is what I believe happened.

I believe that God ordained that certain people will be guided to find and embrace the Truth. Why some of us recognize Baha’u’llah and others do not is not fully known to us, but it is fully known to God. Baha'u'llah in His Writings expressed that those who have joined the Cause have done something in the past that enabled them to receive this gift.

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."

(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Trailblazer]

Either exists or he doesn't. None of us know without any doubt.
The only one displaying "ego" here is you, by insisting that you know, without doubt, that god exists, simply because you believe he does.

You cannot say that none of us know without any doubt because you cannot know what everyone else in the world knows without any doubt. You are 'projecting' what you believe other people should be able to know onto all the people in the world. You think that everyone should need proof to know that God exists but some of us do not need proof to know.

Whenever you tell me what I know this is your ego insisting you can know what I know.
But you cannot know what I know since you are not me.