Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[CG Didymus]

Shoghi Effendi, in the official Writings, offers that Calamity will visit us before we will establish the Lesser Peace. There will have to be a reconstruction.

"... Adversity, prolonged, worldwide, afflictive, allied to chaos and universal destruction, must needs convulse the nations, stir the conscience of the world, disillusion the masses, precipitate a radical change in the very conception of society, and coalesce ultimately the disjointed, the bleeding limbs of mankind into one body, single, organically united, and indivisible.

World Commonwealth

To the general character, the implications and features of this world commonwealth, destined to emerge, sooner or later, out of the carnage, agony, and havoc of this great world convulsion, I have already referred in my previous communications. Suffice it to say that this consummation will, by its very nature, be a gradual process, and must, as Bahá’u’lláh has Himself anticipated, lead at first to the establishment of that Lesser Peace which the nations of the earth, as yet unconscious of His Revelation and yet unwittingly enforcing the general principles which He has enunciated, will themselves establish. This momentous and historic step, involving the reconstruction of mankind, as the result of the universal recognition of its oneness and wholeness, will bring in its wake the spiritualization of the masses, consequent to the recognition of the character, and the acknowledgment of the claims, of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh—the essential condition to that ultimate fusion of all races, creeds, classes, and nations which must signalize the emergence of His New World Order..."

No one knows how long this will take, but to know it is written these days are shortened so we do not totally destroy ourselves.

Regards Tony

And I keep asking in what prophesies does it say the promised one of all the religions comes, gets rejected and imprisoned, dies, and then the world goes into the convulsions? Oh, and that there would be two "promised" ones.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, this should be good!

@samtonga43 said:
Tb. It is a possibility that God does not exist.
Tb. I know that God exists.

The above two statements are logically incompatible.
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It is simple to explain why they are not logically incompatible.
Hypothetically speaking, there is a possibility that God does not exist since it can never be proven that God exists, but I know that God exists according to the following definition of know.

Know: to have information in your mind; to be aware of something: know

All knowledge is not factual knowledge.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself (3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh, not that I know for sure, but I've heard that even in UHJ voting in the Baha'i Faith, somehow, people from the World Teaching Center get voted into the UHJ.

You are not listening to the right people if that is what you heard.

Yes, you get to choose who you listen to

So, that is not true? And this guy is wrong?

When the UHJ was first established in 1963, its membership included former members of the International Baha’i Council (these had been appointed by Shoghi Effendi) and members of various National Spiritual Assemblies. Later, the UHJ established the ITC, intended to take the place of the dwindling Hands of the Cause of God. Over several decades, however, more and more members of the UHJ have tended to come from the ITC, until today, ALL the UHJ members were elected from the ITC’s membership, which was appointed by the UHJ previously, making this BAO a pathetic mockery of democracy. The result is a system that is by nature extremely conservative and not open to new ideas that could allow it to adapt to changing circumstances.

​

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah has foreseen the quandaries CG.

"What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied."

Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 29

Regards Tony

Yes, they have. So, how do we evaluate all these "differing" opinions? Take only the word of Baha'is? Or see what others say? Oh, and even some Atheists have said they'd change their minds if there was some objective proof that first, God exists, and second, that Baha'u'llah has been sent from God. But the "proof" depends on taking things of faith. And if we're all going to do that then some of us will put our faith into other religions or no religions. Now the turmoil and convulsions, that is kind of like proof. We'll see. But it could also be when Jesus comes down riding on a white horse to save the day. Which is what it sounds like in the prophecies in Revelation. Symbolic? For sure, but to make the prophecies of Revelation into what Baha'is claim? That is really a stretch for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

That was the implication of what he said. Pointing this out is not a "straw man".

So under this great Bahai world government that is supposed to be coming, only Bahais get to vote.
Which is exactly what I said.

TransmutingSoul said: ↑
Because you have brought in the need for people that are not Baha'i, to be given rights to vote in Baha'i elections. Would you like me to quote that? I am on my phone and it is difficult to do that.

KWED said:
So you admit that in this great utopia of global peace and unity, there will be an elite ruling class based on membership of a religion, and the majority will be disenfranchised and without representation.
So basically, oppressive theological totalitarianism.
Sounds perfect. Can't understand why everyone hasn't already signed up.
#1632 KWED, Yesterday at 1:12 AM

Tony did not say that under this 'great Baha'i world government' that is supposed to be coming, only Baha'is get to vote. That was your straw man.

Tony said that only Baha'is can vote in Baha'i elections. Tony did not say anything about a Bahai world government that is coming with an elite ruling class based on membership of a religion, where the majority will be disenfranchised and without representation. This is where you jumped to conclusions, a fallacy, and made a straw man argument.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are free to post what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad offered all humanity CG, that was not already given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The only people calling Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a fraud, is not the Baha'i. I would offer I do not accept his claim. He may very well believe otherwise, but I would offer Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mistaken and let others make their own decisions.

Regards Tony

Baha'is don't call him a fraud? But you don't believe his claims, so then what is he? What's sad is that if he is a fraud, that millions and millions of people have been fooled by his claims. But then, I wonder what those people say about the claims of Baha'u'llah? Everyone has their proof that shows their prophet is the true one, and proof that those other prophets are the frauds. And similarly, I looked into why some Jews didn't except Jesus as their Messiah. From their pov, I think they had legitimate reasons. Same thing, the new prophet makes claims, says he fulfilled prophecies and some people believe him and some don't. So, all we get is another religion to add to the many other ones claiming to have the truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Free will submission unto the Messenger and God's Laws, is Faith CG.

"Consider the pettiness of men's minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335

Regards Tony

How do you define "dogma"? 'Cause that is what I'm referring to.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you accept that your belief that god exists has no bearing on whether he actually does.

Of course my belief that God exists has no bearing upon whether God exists or not.
Conversely, your disbelief that God exists has no bearing on whether God exists or not.

You have inserted "by humans" there where it is not required.
Even if god laid down the laws, it is still dogma if we are required to unquestioningly follow them. The source is irrelevant.

True. I admitted that to @danieldemol last night.

Another illogical contradiction.

No, that is not an illogical contradiction since Baha'u'llah was both human and divine since He had a twofold nature.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Trailblazer]

I have investigated, and they are strikingly similar. Neither has any evidence or rational argument to support their claims. Their followers rely on belief - as you keep explaining.

There is no similarity whatsoever. One is a fraud, a self-proclaimed messenger, the other is a Messenger of God who got a message from God.

Did I claim or imply that Ahmadiyya is true because it has a lot of followers? (Now that was a "straw man" )

No, I did not claim that. I said that Ahmadiyya is not true just because it has a lot of followers.
That would be the fallacy of ad populum.

Ahmadis believe in his fulfilled prophesies just as you believe in Bahaullah's. This is due to confirmation bias. Unbiased observers, with no need to confirm a pre-existing belief, see no fulfilled prophesies from either.

They can 'believe' anything they want to believe, but they cannot 'show' that he fulfilled any prophecies since he didn't do what the prophecies say. By contrast, Baha'is can show exactly how Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think that god's infallible messenger was incapable of clearly expressing what he meant?

He was not incapable. He clearly expressed what He meant.

 

[Trailblazer]

I notice that Bahaullah said the current order will go and the NWO be in place "soon".
That was a century and a half ago.
The world is moving towards more individual and separate statehood and autonomy than existed 150 years ago, not less.

Why was he so wrong?

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

He was not wrong. The rolling up of the old world order began soon after that as written and it has continued at an ever increasing pace. We can already see the beginnings of a new world order.

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

He was not wrong. Did you think Baha'u'llah envisioned one world government and no separate nations with individual and separate statehood and autonomy? No, that is not the New World Order. There will always be separate nations.

World government

In World Order of Baháʼu'lláh, first published in 1938, Shoghi Effendi describes the anticipated world government as the "world's future super-state" with the Baháʼí Faith as the "State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power."[5]

According to Shoghi Effendi, "The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Baháʼu'lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system."[6]

Baháʼí author Joseph Sheppherd emphasises the balance between unity and diversity in the Baháʼí system, stating that in the New world order "the cultural identity and diversity of individuals must be protected, respected and valued as integral to the whole" so as to avoid the extreme of unity leading to uniformity. [7]

New world order (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Shoghi Effendi, in the official Writings, offers that Calamity will visit us before we will establish the Lesser Peace. There will have to be a reconstruction.

"... Adversity, prolonged, worldwide, afflictive, allied to chaos and universal destruction, must needs convulse the nations, stir the conscience of the world, disillusion the masses, precipitate a radical change in the very conception of society, and coalesce ultimately the disjointed, the bleeding limbs of mankind into one body, single, organically united, and indivisible.

The Writings can be interpreted in various ways.
My point was that the calamities have already begun....

I think WWI and WWII were part of the calamities and the calamities have continued since then.
I also think that many more calamities will occur before the Lesser Peace will be established.

Will it be one big calamity or many smaller ones? Nobody know what form these calamities will take so I do not see any point in surmising.

However, it sure sounds like it will be BIG.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[samtonga43]

“Many people believe God exists”. This is a fact.
"I think God exists." This is an opinion.
"God exists." This is a belief.

Correct

So, which is it for you, Tb?
"I think God exists."
or
"God exists."

?

 

[samtonga43]

Baha'u'llah was human but also divine. He had the authority to speak for God because that authority was given to Him by God.

Evidence?

By contrast, the men who created Church doctrines did not have any authority given to them by God.

Evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

“Many people believe God exists”. This is a fact.
"I think God exists." This is an opinion.
"God exists." This is a belief.

So, which is it for you, Tb?
"I think God exists."
or
"God exists."

?

For me it is "God exists." This is a belief.
Which is it for you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidence?

There is no evidence that Baha'u'llah had the authority to speak for God because that authority was given to Him by God. That is a religious belief that cannot be proven with evidence.

Evidence?

There is no evidence that the men who created Church doctrines had any authority given to them by God. If there was any evidence it would be in the Bible, but even if it was it would still only be a religious belief.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I keep asking in what prophesies does it say the promised one of all the religions comes, gets rejected and imprisoned, dies, and then the world goes into the convulsions? Oh, and that there would be two "promised" ones.

I see the Bible is full of prophecy that is offering that 2 will come.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, that is not true? And this guy if wrong?

When the UHJ was first established in 1963, its membership included former members of the International Baha’i Council (these had been appointed by Shoghi Effendi) and members of various National Spiritual Assemblies. Later, the UHJ established the ITC, intended to take the place of the dwindling Hands of the Cause of God. Over several decades, however, more and more members of the UHJ have tended to come from the ITC, until today, ALL the UHJ members were elected from the ITC’s membership, which was appointed by the UHJ previously, making this BAO a pathetic mockery of democracy. The result is a system that is by nature extremely conservative and not open to new ideas that could allow it to adapt to changing circumstances.​

No it is not. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, they have. So, how do we evaluate all these "differing" opinions? Take only the word of Baha'is? Or see what others say? Oh, and even some Atheists have said they'd change their minds if there was some objective proof that first, God exists, and second, that Baha'u'llah has been sent from God. But the "proof" depends on taking things of faith. And if we're all going to do that then some of us will put our faith into other religions or no religions. Now the turmoil and convulsions, that is kind of like proof. We'll see. But it could also be when Jesus comes down riding on a white horse to save the day. Which is what it sounds like in the prophecies in Revelation. Symbolic? For sure, but to make the prophecies of Revelation into what Baha'is claim? That is really a stretch for me.

Yes, you have to make your choices CG.

You must do it how you need to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'is don't call him a fraud? But you don't believe his claims, so then what is he? What's sad is that if he is a fraud, that millions and millions of people have been fooled by his claims. But then, I wonder what those people say about the claims of Baha'u'llah? Everyone has their proof that shows their prophet is the true one, and proof that those other prophets are the frauds. And similarly, I looked into why some Jews didn't except Jesus as their Messiah. From their pov, I think they had legitimate reasons. Same thing, the new prophet makes claims, says he fulfilled prophecies and some people believe him and some don't. So, all we get is another religion to add to the many other ones claiming to have the truth.

No, as I am not a person that can caste the first stone.

Also it is not for me to question how guidance is given by God.

Baha'u'llah has offered it is our own actions that lead to acceptance or rejection of the Message.

Regards Tony