Seems like a quandary for all to consider CG.
A Baha'i can only offer what Baha'u'llah has.
I would agree the wisdom in doing that, is most likely not as Abdul'baha would do.
Regards Tony
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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Seems like a quandary for all to consider CG.
A Baha'i can only offer what Baha'u'llah has.
I would agree the wisdom in doing that, is most likely not as Abdul'baha would do.
Regards Tony
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I am not entitled to my opinion, Tony?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.
They had exactly the same nature.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
a) Incarnation means the appearance of God in a human form.
b) Manifestation means the appearance of God in signs.
Jesus is a)
MrB. is neither.
IMO
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
According to the Bible God is Spirit. That means that God cannot be flesh (in human form) because that is a contradiction.
The law of non-contradiction rules out certain circumstances as impossi- ble—circumstances in which a statement is both true and false, or perhaps circumstances where something both is and is not the case.
Logic, Ontological Neutrality, and the Law of Non-Contradiction
The Bible says that God was manifested in the flesh. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God became flesh.
That is a Christian doctrine that was decided upon by men at Councils, not a Bible teaching.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Incarnation means God became flesh.
Manifestation means that God was manifested in the flesh.
The difference between an incarnation of God and a Manifestation of God is explained:
“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..
One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9).”
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God have a twofold nature: one is the physical nature pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual nature, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine nature that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.
Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,
The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
All nations and all places means literally everywhere.
Great then we both can be right.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Good interpretation. Yes, that is what I think it means.
Yes we can.Great then we both can be right.
Yes, but my thoughts would still be Oh Dear.
That is because with that opinion there is no strong foundation to make it upon, it is just an uninformed opinion.
What I can offer is that the Life of Jesus Christ has a parallel comparison with that of the Bab, and the Bab came to prepare the Way for the 'One whom God would make Manifest', exactly what Jesus Christ did as well.
This is but one list, there are many more as they were both Lambs off Biblical prophecy.
It indicates the remarkable similarity in the story of their lives:
1. They were both youthful.
2. They were both known for their meekness and loving kindness.
3. They both performed healing miracles.
4. The period of their ministry was very brief in each case, and moved with dramatic swiftness to its climax. Jesus 3 years, the Bab 6 years (Interesting twice as long)
5. Both of them boldly challenged the time-honoured conventions, laws, and rites of the religions into which they had been born.
6. They courageously condemned the unbridled graft and corruption which they saw on every side, both religious and secular.
7. The purity of their own lives shamed the people among whom they taught.
8. Their chief enemies were among the religious leaders of the land. These officials were the instigators of the outrages they were made to suffer.
9. They both had indignities heaped upon them.
10. They were both forcibly brought before the government authorities and were subject to public interrogation.
11. They were both scourged following this interrogation.
12. They both went, first in triumph then in suffering, through the streets of the city where they were to be slain.
13. They were both paraded publicly, and heaped with humiliation, on the way to their place of martyrdom.
14. They both spoke words of hope and promise to the one who was to die with them; in fact, almost the exact same words: 'Thou shalt be with me in paradise.'
15. They were both martyred publicly before the hostile gaze of the onlookers who crowded the scene.
16. A darkness covered the land following their slaying, in each case beginning at noon.
17. Their bodies were both lacerated by soldiers at the time of their slaying.
18. They both remained in ignominious suspension before the eyes of an unfriendly multitude.
19. Their bodies came finally into the hands of their loving followers.
20. When their bodies, in each case, had vanished from the spot where they had been placed, the religious leaders explained away the fact.
21. Only a handful of their followers were with them at the times of their deaths.
22. In each case, one of their chief disciples denied knowing them. This same disciple, in each case, later became a hero.
23. Each of them had an outstanding woman follower who played a dramatic part in making the disciples turn their faces from the past, and look toward the future.
24. Confusion, bewilderment and despair seized their followers in each case, following their martyrdom.
25. Through their disciples (the Peters and Pauls of each age) their Faiths were carried to all parts of the world.
26. They both replied with the same exact
words to the question: Are you the Promised One? (I Am)
27. Each of them addressed their disciples, charging them to carry their messages to the ends of the earth." (God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi)
From pp. 87-88 Thief in the Night by William Sears.
So, now there is a foundation for my Oh Dear. That list can be greatly expanded.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Because Baha'is are telling someone from another religions that they, the Baha'is, know the proper interpretation of his own Scriptures. Isn't their some Baha'i quote about consorting with people in the other religions with kindness? I think Baha'is should treat people in the other religions with lots more respect than to tell them how wrong they are about their own Scriptures.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yet, if asked, Baha'is do have a definition for both don't they?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You're doing the same thing... Telling someone from another religion that their beliefs and interpretations of their own Scriptures are wrong. "Oh dear"? and "uninformed"? You know the reasons why some Christians came to the conclusion that Jesus must be God in the flesh. It might be wrong, to you, but uninformed? And where does that get you? They'll tell you are wrong and following a false Christ and you'll tell them they don't know what they're talking about. Is that the best way Baha'is, again, if it's true, to present their religion? Because I don't see that bringing peace and understanding between people of different religions, just helping promote what divides them. Which might be a good way for some religions, but is it really the best way for Baha'is?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Of course, Baha'is believe there are prophecies that show that in the end times there will be two manifestations of God and that they'd both come from Persia... and that the first one would come in 1844 or 1260 in the Islamic calendar. But, since Baha'is believe all the major religions predicted these things, then there should be prophecies in all the major religions to support this. Do you know of any such Scriptures? I've only heard a few very vague and out of context Bible verses they use.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
His beef is with Baha'is because we have a different interpretation of the Bible, but that is not our own personal interpretation, it is derived from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, so if there is any beef to be had, the beef should be with them.
But instead we stand accused of being unfriendly, just because we do not agree with Christians. A
Since Christians do not agree with us, why aren't they considered unfriendly? Atheists don't agree with Christians but they are not called unfriendly. Why is the onus always on the Baha'is to be so friendly?
People can disagree and still be friendly.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
For me, being a "manifestation" isn't all that bad. I can see how a manifestation, a person that reflects God perfectly, would virtually be God to us. However, it's how many people they make into "manifestations" that bothers me. Was Abraham, Moses, and even Muhammad necessarily "perfect"? Did they really perfectly reflect the image of God? I've never gotten a good answer on this from Baha'is. But you know the type of answers they give when they don't really know.
Oh, and Baha'u'llah talks about Noah in one of his books, and I think he's also elevated to being a "manifestation." But then Baha'u'llah's story about Noah has nothing to do with the story in the Bible. It's like he's making up his own versions of these people to support them being "manifestations." Or, getting stories from Islam or some other religion.
And that reminds me. Baha'u'llah goes by the Islamic version of the Jesus birth narrative. It's nothing like the story in the gospels. It has Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm. If they just called themselves a revised version of Islam, that I could believe. Because they have so little in common with Christianity or with Hinduism and Buddhism.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
One thing is for sure; the details of Jesus' life and death and resurrection could not have been copied from Thief in the Night.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Noah is a 'manifestation'? That's a new one!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah did not refer to Moses or Noah as Manifestations of God. He referred to them as Prophets. However, what's in a label? It is just a label.
“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.
After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63
“For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, ” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 154
“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.
After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63
“For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, ” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 154
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No Baha'i ever claimed that it was, but those details also were not accurately represented in the gospels, as every Bible scholar knows.One thing is for sure; the details of Jesus' life and death and resurrection could not have been copied from Thief in the Night.