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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
How is humanity supposed to do that when god keeps sending irrational, contradictory, and often violent and intolerant messages?

We only have to concern ourselves with the age we live in, we have the bounty of learning from the past.

The Message for this age is how we can obtain unto the most great peace. Unfortunately that was rejected before we were born, so our concern is the Lesser Peace.

So why is the majority of humanity not embracing that opportunity? Why are you not on-board and helping?

That is how God works the plan for humanity, God gives us the choices, but because God knows what we will choose, the plan still unfolds amongst the sufferings we cause to our own selves.

Knowing this, why would we still reject God's advice?

Regards Tony
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I keep coming across this same argument from Baha'is - that they have "done their own investigation" and found convincing evidence for Bahaullah actually being an actual messenger of an actual god. Yet when I study the sources they cite, I find nothing but vague platitudes and unsupported claims, not dissimilar to other religious texts and messengers.
So given this, what is it about Bahaullah's writings that convinces you that he really is an actual messenger of an actual god? Specifics please, rather than more platitudes like "His Self, Writings and Life". Actual passages that we can examine.
Thanks
How thorough was there investigation? How come I just scratch the surface and find all kinds of problems?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So you admit that a person's reaction to meeting Bahaullah is not any sort of proof that he was an actual messenger of god.
Basically, people have "chosen" to believe he is a messenger of god, just as I might choose to support a football team or vote for a politician.
In the early 70's lots of us were enamored by various Gurus. I remember reading "An Autobiography of a Yogi". In there was a picture of Swami Sri Yukteswar. Light was radiating from it. Real or was it just my imagination? A Christian friend went forward during a healing service, and the preacher laid hands on him, and he said it felt like warm honey was being poured over him. Lots of people feel the power of God and see things and believe things and get carried away by the "love" they see and feel in a spiritual leader... even the ones that later were shown to be frauds.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do you think god needs to order the killing of people who reject him? Sounds like a mob boss or something.
All Tony sees is the love of God in the Bible, so I asked him about God ordering the killing of every man, woman and child in Jericho. He magically spins it into God showing his love? But the next question... Did it really ever happen? Of course some Jews and some Christians are going to believe it literally happened. But why would a Baha'i? They make so many things in the Bible symbolic, why not that too? And, I would hope, most Baha'is don't take it literally... That God ordered the killing of everybody? Including the woman and children? As if that's going to solve the problem of evil and belief in false Gods in the world?

I don't know, but I'd think that was just a legend told to the people about how great their God was. And how harsh he is with those people that don't believe in him and follow their own false Gods. But, like you're saying, were these stories from a God and meant for all people the world over? Or just legends and traditions of a nomadic tribe of desert people? When I read the laws and the rules for doing the various sacrifices, I find it hard to believe a God really said those things and commanded those things. Seems so much more likely the religious leaders of the tribe made those things up.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We only have to concern ourselves with the age we live in, we have the bounty of learning from the past.

The Message for this age is how we can obtain unto the most great peace. Unfortunately that was rejected before we were born, so our concern is the Lesser Peace.

So why is the majority of humanity not embracing that opportunity? Why are you not on-board and helping?

That is how God works the plan for humanity, God gives us the choices, but because God knows what we will choose, the plan still unfolds amongst the sufferings we cause to our own selves.

Knowing this, why would we still reject God's advice?

Regards Tony
Part of what we have learned from the past is to be weary of religion. Give them absolute power and they do a lot of bad things. Unfortunately for the Baha'is, that is the tradition you've inherited. Religious leaders? Can't trust them? The "believing" masses? Most just go through the motions. Even the Baha'i Faith has a side of it that is prone to being ultra-conservative and authoritarian... of course, they believe it is God's laws they are promoting. My Baha'i friends back in the 70's were all ex-hippies and very liberal. They were always in trouble with the leaders of the Local Spiritual Assembly and Auxiliary Board members.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
All I can say is that I know of no atheists who expect all the religions to be the same. (When I say 'know' I mean know in real life).
Humans were taught the first human parents were all the same. DNA life body was exact the same type ...no matter what country they moved into. From out of eternal spirit.

Science fall of man fallout attacked diversified DNA. To nation. OT.

As genesis biology lives in the heavens. We only stand on God earth.

Heavens same everywhere by science. A season or heavens to ground terms by nation only as a God term.

Not a science term.

Nuclear conversion of mass a time lying inferred calculus exact to the same mass body. By a man's want.

Science.

Diversified life as we live in the heavens. We don't live as a constant nuclear mass or a constant mass conversion.

National life by country to heavens above exact. Nation.

Sun time. Fake.

So each nations inheritance named nearly the same advice of own life attacked just self experienced.

As science was the same God cause.

Country however owns land values different. More or less water bodies etc. In the national land life.

A human says light is A gas burning in vacuum fed fuel from the wandering stone. Saves life by allowing light. Continues light otherwise gas burns out.

Light.

Nuclear earth God says zero mass. No time whatsoever as sun time.

You do a reaction. Say you live year 2022 yet your numbers in mass go to number 4300. Reacting calculus. Numbers isn't nuclear. Is not shifting time it's eradication of natural life's natural light future gases.

Seeing light exists above by fuel too. To get a future.

It's why the term Jesus took all light out of the inherited science future human life. Day went dark.

You'd already burnt it up unnaturally yourselves. As nuclear earth mass removal body of god.

You know you tell this story brother.

As you Inherit the idea of back numbers in calculus only also ...you told lies about time shift.

As memory recordings of dead humans re emerged were seen. As you destroy records and mass and heavens. Where the old records had existed cooled unseen.

Father baby man owns all quotes.

OT. Old testament testimonial.
ID. My identification of and ID Thinking.
I.

Theist man scientist a choice only.
Idiot. Is what you quantify your thinking man scientist is today. The worst kind of mind ever you say in memory.

Possessed by man's science studies stories only.

You said yourself thinking....O a burning mass I cannot give a circle to. As it keeps disappearing.

O you said was held fixed cold mass a circle. Yet make no number claim to mass. As mass isn't your circle.

All in your head only as a circle doesn't exist in reality. Your confession.

Out of nothing science emerged by your man say so as lying. Numbers you said that you gave the circle yourself.

Why science was just in your head. As natural is owned by all of its own bodies. Mass by type of body individual. Not circles.

No human. No destroyer either.

Legal book. A written document not the bible..bible just proof scientists attacked changed life on earth. Testimonial to produce the legal document.

Legal by writing document stated human equal rights.

Such as babies born by human sex are innocent of the parents sin. Inherited body type inherited conscious belief.

Owned equal human rights as the changed human life.

The advice man human said. I knew burning star fall was would be Jesus returned. Notice Jesus the attack event falling star only. Saved by earths God saviour cold gas body ice melt water replacement hot gases cooled.

Life would be changed again. Known and advised. Isn't any science thesis as Jesus. It was advised knowledge.

When dead humans are seen. Visionary. Is part of the advice you know it's not about how life as a human on earth began.

From dead human recordings destroyed heavens recordings that disappear by the attack.

Meanwhile living biology is sacrificed too as if humans life through time is eradicated.

Who wants life just to be a machine?

Human men theory it.

What would a man look like as a machines reactive baby? Not a man.

It's as if you went back in time to destroy your presence now. So you wouldn't own a life as a human now.

Why invent a time machine shifter in intent? It was a human thinking a machine will take my place as biology?

Two strings from God earth to machine built. Then to machine reacting gods earth. Then a thought a humans life in biology from exact same thinker. The position earths mass god.

Says intent humans biological destruction. By the human theist.
A human man theist of science had and still does. Thinks the same.

So science position as the human is nuclear waste. Claim of the theist where humans will begin life.

As he wants electricity out of gods energy as what's left over. Not all used back to a true nothing space zero.

Who historically in memory confessed who didn't want light to exist above either as life owner light first.....just the immaculate heavens gases only as first?

No light at all.
A man science theist did.

So he then tried to invent the causes. His confess of Sion Fu Sion fis Sion.

H terrestrial magnetism is his man's inferred symbol. In science of man's calculus.

Fis H Sion. I multiplied the unnatural causes myself. As life was starving food in nature had been eradicated.

Circle falls on crops ground trees.

Natural fish the origin word owner nuked in water attack died washed ashore.

Starving humans ate those fish. Thought it a miracle.

ET....extra in the terrestrial....extra fake false images by machines burning causes. Earths cold seals removed in mass.

The sacrifice of life I confessed I caused as man with machine sciences.

By O calculus fallout.

As it was only in my man's head that I invented the thoughts so it hadn't existed.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
As I said, Truthseeker, I'm interested in why you don't believe he could have been deluded.

It's not about 'caring what you think'. This is a forum where different viewpoints can be shared. I am asking you to share yours. If you can't or would rather not, just say so.
I don't care what you think about my viewpoint. I already shared my viewpoint on that and for some reason you thought it needed a further justification of why I believe that. I learn nothing from that, and neither do you. You see, I conceive discusssing something as two people learning from each other.
As I said, Truthseeker, I'm interested in why you don't believe he could have been deluded.

It's not about 'caring what you think'. This is a forum where different viewpoints can be shared. I am asking you to share yours. If you can't or would rather not, just say so.
I already said why. Apparently you don't understand that I did say why.

I wish I never said "think about it". Everything got tangled up after that. I'm not even sure what I meant by that statement any more. It doesn't pay for me to discuss this at this hour when I'm tired.

I don't wish to discuss this any more. It's fruitless.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You claimed that Bahaullah wasn't deluded.
It is not up to anyone else to say why you claim something. :confused:
Surely you have reasons for making that claim, or did you just type stuff at random?
I don't want to discuss this any more. This has become a fruitless discussion now. See the above post.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father human from the original eternal being was direct once only.

Whose body type changed Inherited as proof a separate bone body then a bio body on top. Two body types instantly one body.

That position is only bones left after human death our proof. Left with God rock. Bio image recorded life heavens of lived life only. Once.

We aren't meant to be here as we came as another body type first.

Is exact.

Is not bible man's baby adult human technology theist testimony against a human scientist.

He lived as a human and he had sex with mother both equal humans. Had two equal holy human babies. Equal.

Man adult baby self the theist.
Your story how and why I became the theist crown of thorns brain attack.

I changed I became nasty minded.

Civilisation builder.
Science theist storyteller.
Self idolator human sacrifice. Star fall caused.

Who said I am God the position of earth only first. By mind consciousness only...lying.

Proven wrong as the star God was first advice your human man's argument. Why.

Why an unholy mind was Inherited.

The bahuallah teaching.

Your teaching a wandering star kept life protected. No earth attack.

A falling star gave men a physical changed bio mind advice only.

Proven as he said as a man I was saved just like my spiritual brother before me by God's earth status.

Saviour. Ice. Spacious cooled CH gases. Heavenly God.

A humans teaching only.

First of all no baby is gods.

A baby is by human sex.

As babies were life sacrificed by human scientist you seem to overlook their images were put in clouds too as whole destroyed baby man to adult life.

Ignored part of self Idolating sciences advice.

I know today you ignore in some religious venues secondary status you give to women. Unequal themed man controlled false advice.

When space womb zero maths was your science of man's secondary status.

You never told the truth about lying.

Baby man owned mother's ovary human cell. The theist.

You looked back. You're not a woman in memory. A dead father is your adult memory. You lied as themed an immaculate superior being.

You've never quantified the legality yet of a man who had shut the reading of the testimony.

Is bahuallah prophecy. You reopened re read science. So more advice of legality would be in our future.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Part of what we have learned from the past is to be weary of religion. Give them absolute power and they do a lot of bad things. Unfortunately for the Baha'is, that is the tradition you've inherited. Religious leaders? Can't trust them? The "believing" masses? Most just go through the motions. Even the Baha'i Faith has a side of it that is prone to being ultra-conservative and authoritarian... of course, they believe it is God's laws they are promoting. My Baha'i friends back in the 70's were all ex-hippies and very liberal. They were always in trouble with the leaders of the Local Spiritual Assembly and Auxiliary Board members.

Yes, I see we all have our choices and we one and all, also have our excuses.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, it is not logical that if there is one God with messages for mankind the messages would be the same in every age, since the requirements of every age differ.
The messages differ more with place and culture than with time.
Take the year 900AD. There were many different, conflicting religions around the world
Move on 500 years. Many of those religions still exist with their conflicting messages.

Religions are revealed by God to suit the needs of humanity at that time of revelation
So why did humanity in 1st century Palestine require a subservient monotheism, but humanity in 8th century Mesoamerica require polytheistic human sacrifice?

so the religion we should follow in the present age needs to be suited to the problems humanity is facing in this age. If a religion has no practical application for humans living on earth, I see no reason to follow it.
So what "practical applications" for the modern world does Bahaism provide?

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
[/quote] So, what was the "disease" that polytheistic human sacrifice was the "remedy" for?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes, I that is not any sort of proof. Why would it be?
You said...
"Yes, if someone actually met Baha'u'llah that might be proof"
You really need to try and keep track of what you are saying.
(This is what happens when your position is not based on reason or rational argument. When you simply contradict any argument that refutes your position without really thinking through the implications, you will keep having this problem. It's like the old adage about lying. You can't forget what you made up if you stick to the truth)

No, we have chosen based upon the evidence, which is His Person, His Revelation (what He did on His mission), and His Writings.
But as we have already established, none of that is "evidence". They are merely vague platitudes that you find convincing for some reason.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
One idea is one reality as one species human.

One was natural and family no government no civilisation no money or greed. Just trade.

A human is tribal and forced to live in or barely with civilisation.

Tries to succeed to natural human answers for tribal families first human rights removed by bad minded men.

Then strategically uses all summations of historic testimonies. Lives naturally non tribal but wants family to succeed itself in civilisation.

Has a difficult thought process to establish a human governing mutual trade success

So names it a teaching instead.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
I agree. Christ said only the pure in heart shall see God so if one is not pure in heart, their learning will avail them not in drawing closer to God. So it’s always possible if we are not pure hearted to wrongfully use our knowledge to condemn a Prophet or Messenger from God.
Who purifies our hearts?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
All religions do have the same fundamental spiritual truths.
No, they absolutely do not. Even the fundamental nature of god differs massively.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:
“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles.
Ah, so your claim about all religions being the same only applies to the Abrahamic religions. So god only sent messengers to the Middle East in the last 3000 years. Therefore all other religions from other times and places are wrong. Which contradicts your claim that god sent messengers to all people and all times.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48
Why was slavery "necessary" to some cultures in the 19th century, but not others?
Why was slavery ever "necessary" at all?

In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality
But you just claimed that "morality" varies with time and place so that claim is meaningless.

Muhammad focused on nation building,
Why did god need there to be Islamic Empires that resulted in massive oppression and suffering?

and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind.
1. Every megalomaniac emperor/ideologue dreams of world domination. Nothing miraculous about that.
2. Every rational person wants people to live in peace and cooperation. Nothing miraculous about that.

Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why God reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.
That still doesn't explain why there have been, and still are so many contradictory and incompatible religions around the world.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
From what I have found in life, there is only one God.
Everyone who believes in a god or gods says exactly the same thing about their version. Why is yours better than theirs?

To me, ones acceptance of One God and the knowledge as to how that One God communicates with humanity, is the answer to all the questions.
How do mere platitudes answer any question about anything?

Thus the answer to your question is that Baha'u'llah has a twofold station. In one station he was a man like us, in the other station Baha'u'llah is the 'Self of God'.

In the human station Baha'u'llah as a child had some rudimentary education and instruction, one subject would have been the Quran.

In the station of the Messenger, Baha'u'llah's knowledge was innate, unlearnt. These qualities become apparent in the person of a Messenger from birth.

Thus from an infant, people already know there is something very special about these children.

There are many stories recorded about the childhood of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. In the case of the Bab there is much material available to show how the station of the Messenger is untaught knowledge.

I have taken a little time to answer your question, but it requires much study, as we do not have innate knowledge. Baha'u'llah could answer all questions, comprehensively and with bonus input. Thus Baha'u'llah gave knowledge of the Spirit not previously taught.
So you admit that he was educated by traditional means, but some of the stuff he knew was by magic.
How do you differentiate between the two sources for any given statement?

This brings us a full circle, if you do not believe in God, and thus do not believe we are from the Holy Spirit, then you will reject all this and it will come back to the one same question.
That is just question begging and another cop-out. If any "evidence" for magic depends on you first believing in magic, then it is utterly meaningless as evidence.

Do you believe in God?
Which god?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Everyone who believes in a god or gods says exactly the same thing about their version. Why is yours better than theirs?

How do mere platitudes answer any question about anything?

So you admit that he was educated by traditional means, but some of the stuff he knew was by magic.
How do you differentiate between the two sources for any given statement?

That is just question begging and another cop-out. If any "evidence" for magic depends on you first believing in magic, then it is utterly meaningless as evidence.

Which god?

I finished with this and the many Godless exchanges RF now delivers.

Matter of fact, I do not look forward opening the RF forum anymore, I dread these exchanges.

Good bye and all the best.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
My claim about God is not that God has revealed many contradictory and conflicting messages.
My actual position is that there have been different messages revealed in every age, in order to suit the needs of the age in which the message was revealed.
So how are we meant to tell the difference between different religions, and different versions of one religion that are designed to look like different religions?

My claim is that every religion was started by a Messenger of the one true God in order that His message for the age in which that message was revealed might be understood.
So why was god's message for the 1st century peaceful monotheism, but his message for the 8th century was polytheistic human sacrifice?

The evidence bears this out.
Utter nonsense. The evidence shows completely different and conflicting messages, both at different times and the same time. The evidence shows that religion was defined by the culture that invented it. Peoples living in the same region at the same time could have completely different messages. None of this makes any sense if there is one god with one fundamental message. However it makes perfect sense if religions are culturally-driven, man-made phenomena.
You are simply refusing to look at the evidence logically or rationally, because you need the evidence to fit you established conclusion, rather than drawing conclusions from the evidence - which is how rational thinking works.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I finished with this and the many Godless exchanges RF now delivers.
There is one post that you avoided that I really want you to address before you go.

You said...
"God Who is the Author of all life can alone take it away, and dispose of it the way he deems best."

So babies dying in agony from congenital conditions is because god "deems it the best way to dispose of their lives"?
Why do you worship such a monster?

Your beliefs have implications. You cannot simply ignore them when they are uncomfortable.
I understand that it must be difficult for you to work this through rationally and logically, but I really want you to have a go because it really is very important.
 
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