Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[samtonga43]

What I have chosen to believe is based upon my desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, and adult experiences. All of these are the 'reasons' why people choose one thing or another.

I did not desire or prefer to become a Christian.

 

[samtonga43]

I'm asking to think about it for yourself. What do you care what I think?

As I said, Truthseeker, I'm interested in why you don't believe he could have been deluded.

It's not about 'caring what you think'. This is a forum where different viewpoints can be shared. I am asking you to share yours. If you can't or would rather not, just say so.

 

[KWED]

For myself I’ve already satisfied myself of the truth of these Prophets through my own investigation which took years of reading, questions and reflection. That is up to each person to do his/her own research to discover the truth of these claims.

To go through them all or even just some of them would not be possible. Also, if it is your own search then only the effort you put into it will reap any gain. There are many sources you can research on the internet.

Various websites point to prophecies about Christ or Muhammad.

But for Baha’is they have known Baha’u’llah by His Self, Writings and Life. His works such as the Book of Certitude are worth reading. But I can only convince myself by doing my own research and only I can ultimately be satisfied that something is true.

The best I can do is suggest some resources that I think are worth studying but then it’s up to you if you want to investigate or not. You are the one that needs to look into the matter if it interests you. I had to do my own search too.

I keep coming across this same argument from Baha'is - that they have "done their own investigation" and found convincing evidence for Bahaullah actually being an actual messenger of an actual god. Yet when I study the sources they cite, I find nothing but vague platitudes and unsupported claims, not dissimilar to other religious texts and messengers.
So given this, what is it about Bahaullah's writings that convinces you that he really is an actual messenger of an actual god? Specifics please, rather than more platitudes like "His Self, Writings and Life". Actual passages that we can examine.
Thanks

 

[KWED]

Do you believe in God?

Which god?

I repeat the question, as any discussion about God, depends upon the answer to that question.

No it doesn't. The reasons for you believing in your god do not rely on my beliefs.

So once again, do you believe that Bahaullah's knowledge and ability came from traditional methods of learning (tutors, reading books, talking to people), or through supernatural means?
This is an issue where yourself and others seem to be changing your position according to circumstance.

 

[KWED]

God only looks made-up to atheists who compare all the religions, expecting them to be the same, when there is no logical reason that religions that were revealed to different people in different ages that had varying requirements would be the same.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

If there is one god, with one message for mankind (as you claim), then it is only logical that every messenger would present a similar message. It is nonsense to claim that god would send messages as different as ascetic monotheism and polytheistic human sacrifice simply because it was a different time.

Also the differences are more related to geography than time. The various religions around the world that were established around the 7th century are not all similar. Yet the main religions established in the Middle East are all very similar, despite there being over 1000 years covering them.

Furthermore, most religions are exclusive, supremacist and animose towards others.

Bahaullah's argument makes no sense in light of the evidence.

 

[KWED]

It is proof of free will.
Why would everyone conclude the same thing? That would never be expected.

So you admit that a person's reaction to meeting Bahaullah is not any sort of proof that he was an actual messenger of god.
Basically, people have "chosen" to believe he is a messenger of god, just as I might choose to support a football team or vote for a politician.

 

[KWED]

I know of no atheists who expect all the religions to be the same. Where are you getting this idea from?

However, according to @Trailblazer , all religions should be the same (or at least, have similar fundamentals). The fact that they are so wildly different is evidence against their claim that every religion was started by an actual messenger of the actual one and only god.

 

[KWED]

Most atheists I have posted to think that religions would be the same if there was a God because God would not reveal contradictory messages... For example:

KWED said: ↑
In which case, why have there been so many contradictory and conflicting messages?
Why would god deliberately confuse the issue that way and make it look as though he was just made-up in the image of the culture of his creators?

That is a response to your claims about god.
My actual position on religions is that we should expect them all to be different, because they were all invented to service a particular culture. The evidence bears this out.

Your claim that every religion was started by messengers of the one true god, in order that his one true message might be understood, is contradicted by the evidence.

It is both bewildering that you can confuse your own argument with mine, but also somehow expected.

 

[KWED]

What I have chosen to believe is based upon my desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, and adult experiences. All of these are the 'reasons' why people choose one thing or another.

So not because you were presented with convincing evidence that stood up to critical examination
I would tend to agree. Most people believe what they do because they were brought up to believe it, and it is very hard to break such conditioning.

 

[KWED]

I see their rejection is that death, their rejection is foretold. This is also another way to see what is prophecy.

So the rejection of the parents was installed into their children, they repeated that rejection. God already knew their response, and as such, pre issues the warning clearly to those that take the path of the Spirit instead.

Regards Tony

Why do you think god needs to order the killing of people who reject him? Sounds like a mob boss or something.

 

[KWED]

No, not God, I see that is an immature humanity. We need to grow up and find peace and unity, admit to our mistakes and learn from them.

Regards Tony

How is humanity supposed to do that when god keeps sending irrational, contradictory, and often violent and intolerant messages?

 

[KWED]

I'm asking to think about it for yourself. What do you care what I think?

You claimed that Bahaullah wasn't deluded.
It is not up to anyone else to say why you claim something.
Surely you have reasons for making that claim, or did you just type stuff at random?

 

[KWED]

I believe that Baha'u'llah received the above information from God,

Why do you believe that?

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is one god, with one message for mankind (as you claim), then it is only logical that every messenger would present a similar message.

No, it is not logical that if there is one God with messages for mankind the messages would be the same in every age, since the requirements of every age differ.

Religions are revealed by God to suit the needs of humanity at that time of revelation so the religion we should follow in the present age needs to be suited to the problems humanity is facing in this age. If a religion has no practical application for humans living on earth, I see no reason to follow it. Religion is about much more than just praying and meditating and getting to heaven.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

So you admit that a person's reaction to meeting Bahaullah is not any sort of proof that he was an actual messenger of god.

Yes, I that is not any sort of proof. Why would it be?

Basically, people have "chosen" to believe he is a messenger of god, just as I might choose to support a football team or vote for a politician.

No, we have chosen based upon the evidence, which is His Person, His Revelation (what He did on His mission), and His Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

However, according to @Trailblazer , all religions should be the same (or at least, have similar fundamentals). The fact that they are so wildly different is evidence against their claim that every religion was started by an actual messenger of the actual one and only god.

All religions do have the same fundamental spiritual truths.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man as an individual, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why God reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which god?

From what I have found in life, there is only one God.

To me, ones acceptance of One God and the knowledge as to how that One God communicates with humanity, is the answer to all the questions.

Thus the answer to your question is that Baha'u'llah has a twofold station. In one station he was a man like us, in the other station Baha'u'llah is the 'Self of God'.

In the human station Baha'u'llah as a child had some rudimentary education and instruction, one subject would have been the Quran.

In the station of the Messenger, Baha'u'llah's knowledge was innate, unlearnt. These qualities become apparent in the person of a Messenger from birth.

Thus from an infant, people already know there is something very special about these children.

There are many stories recorded about the childhood of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. In the case of the Bab there is much material available to show how the station of the Messenger is untaught knowledge.

I have taken a little time to answer your question, but it requires much study, as we do not have innate knowledge. Baha'u'llah could answer all questions, comprehensively and with bonus input. Thus Baha'u'llah gave knowledge of the Spirit not previously taught.

This brings us a full circle, if you do not believe in God, and thus do not believe we are from the Holy Spirit, then you will reject all this and it will come back to the one same question.

Do you believe in God?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That is a response to your claims about god.
My actual position on religions is that we should expect them all to be different, because they were all invented to service a particular culture. The evidence bears this out.

My claim about God is not that God has revealed many contradictory and conflicting messages.
My actual position is that there have been different messages revealed in every age, in order to suit the needs of the age in which the message was revealed.

Your claim that every religion was started by messengers of the one true god, in order that his one true message might be understood, is contradicted by the evidence.

My claim is that every religion was started by a Messenger of the one true God in order that His message for the age in which that message was revealed might be understood.
The evidence bears this out.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you think god needs to order the killing of people who reject him? Sounds like a mob boss or something.

I do not see the warnings as an order, I see they are a consequence of our own neglect, pre-recorded.

Example. God wants all humanity to live in Love and unity for the good of all peoples, and thus gave another Message. Baha'u'llah offered the Message and a promise of a Most Great Peace if we accepted. The rejection of that message has consequences and those consequences are now recorded, just as they are in past scriptures.

We were then offered a Lessor Peace and that guidance also still remains neglected.

Thus we kill our own selves in our rebellion against God given guidance, we choose our own self and desires above the elixir to life given by God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So not because you were presented with convincing evidence that stood up to critical examination.

Having been presented with the evidence and evaluating it, I found that it stood up to critical examination. After that I chose to believe that the Baha'i Faith was true. My childhood upbringing and adult experiences played into my choice.

I would tend to agree. Most people believe what they do because they were brought up to believe it, and it is very hard to break such conditioning.

I was not brought up in any religion or believing in God. Both my parents were fallen away Christians. Religion and God were never spoken of in my home. I later learned that my mother retained a belief in God but my father became an atheist. I was not searching for God or a religion when I stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college.