Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[KWED]

Personally i believe God exist, i can not answer for those who do not believe God exists.
I do not reject, i only speak of my personal belief of God's existence.

Do you accept that there might be no gods and your beliefs are wrong?
Yes or no?

If you had respected their answers when given to you,

Seriously, what are you on about? "Respect their answers"?
If you mean simply accept them and not challenge them, even if they are irrational or contradictory - why on earth would I do that?
I understand that those answers are what they believe. The problem is that they do not stand up to critical examination. As you say, they rely on an existing faith in the supernatural.

you would not twist and turn everything in a negative way when people telling you what their personal belief is.

Still don't see how you see homophobia, sexism and barbaric punishment as "positives".

Religion isn't about solid physical evidence, it is about putting our faith toward God, and living according to what God ask of us, in a good way (not harming others or our selves in the prosess)

Why would you put your faith in god and follow the rules if you do not have any evidence that said god even exists?
If I knocked on your door with a badge saying "government tax collector" and demanded €500 in cash, would you have faith in me and pay up?

To explain a personal belief, is not as easy as you think, especially when speaking with people who only accept the physical world as "real"

Ok. Why not start with why you think there is another "non-physical world"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you accept that there might be no gods and your beliefs are wrong?
Yes or no?

Seriously, what are you on about? "Respect their answers"?
If you mean simply accept them and not challenge them, even if they are irrational or contradictory - why on earth would I do that?
I understand that those answers are what they believe. The problem is that they do not stand up to critical examination. As you say, they rely on an existing faith in the supernatural.

Still don't see how you see homophobia, sexism and barbaric punishment as "positives".

Why would you put your faith in god and follow the rules if you do not have any evidence that said god even exists?
If I knocked on your door with a badge saying "government tax collector" and demanded €500 in cash, would you have faith in me and pay up?

Ok. Why not start with why you think there is another "non-physical world"?

To the first question :Yes my belief could be wrong.

To the second question : I dont tell you what to do, if you dont want to respect that they hold a belief thaat contradict yours, thats your issue.

The third answer: I Don't tell God what is right or wrong, i live my life as best i can and try to do as little wrong as possible, without telling others what they should or should not do in the bed.

Fourt answer: because i have faith in the existence of God

Fifth answer: where i live taxes are payed automatically, so no in that setting i would not trust you.

Sixt answer: because i have personal experiences that indicate there are other worlds unseen to the human eyes. And no i can not prove it to others since it is personal experiences.

 

[Truthseeker]

He decreed that women can not serve on the UHJ. How do you see that as not being sexist discrimination?
He forbade homosexuality and called it an "evil passion" (Shoghi Effendi called it "a shameful sexual aberration"). How do you see that as not homophobic?
He said that anyone guilty of arson should be burned. How is that not a barbaric punishment.

One correction. He forbade homosexual sex. He also forbids sex outside of marriage, including before marriage. I'm married to a woman who is homosexual, and to me that makes no difference in how I see her.

As to sexist discrimination in the Baha'i Faith, you can't just single out one thing. You have to look at the whole picture.

Of course there is. Present a rational argument for why they are not what they appear to be.

It's not a matter of rationality. It's a matter of investigating Baha'u'llah, determining whether He is who He says he is, then if you believe He is what He says He is, what He says goes. There is some misunderstanding of the issues above by you, but it is useless because in the end I can't effect you see this as a whole.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@TransmutingSoul claimed that people recognising god through the messenger was a miracle.

Yes indeed, I would have said the greatest miracle is a change of heart in the recognition of the Messenger of God, or recognitionof God through the Messenger. Thus the greatest sin is subsequently turning away from the Messenger back to self, when one had recognised them.

This is a common theme in the Holy Scriptures.

"The greatest miracle of the Manifestation of God is that He changes the hearts of people and creates a new civilization merely through the influence of His word. Every word that He utters is creative and endowed with such potency that all the powers of the world will not be able to resist the world-vivifying forces that are released through it. Like the animating energies of the spring season which are let loose in abundance and penetrate to the core of all living things, the creative Word of the Manifestation of God revolutionizes human society and by its resistless force breaks down man-made barriers of opposition, creating a new race of men and a new civilization."

Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 44

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

But you stated that god makes it difficult to recognise a messenger.

And by the words we have of these supposed "messengers", it is difficult to know who God is. God is not necessarily one. There could be multiple Gods. Then what do we know about these "messengers"? If we go by what is written about them do we really "know" them? Then we get to what is written about how to recognize them when they return, except, even if it is supposed to be them, it really means someone different. We're given contradictory times and places about the return. We are told contradictory things that will happen before and after the return. Then, for the Baha'is to be correct, there has to be two "messenger/manifestations" prophesied to come in these supposed "last days". How do we evaluate all of that?

Right off the bat, Baha'is can't show that God really exists. The best proof is messengers. But what "proof" is that when all the things we have in the Scriptures about them contradicts the other messengers? Ah, but the Baha'is have a way to explain why there are apparent contradictions... The Scriptures weren't written by the messenger himself. So, the writers might have gotten things wrong. Then the leader of the religion misinterpreted them. So, by the time we're finished, the religion can't be trusted to be telling us the truth. But, lucky for us, the Baha'i prophet tells us what that truth was. And what a surprise... It points straight to him as being the Promised One of every single religion... That is every single "true" religion, and again, he tells us which ones those are. Sure, very believable.

But those of us that have our doubts, then question the things he said... especially the laws he brought, that supposedly came from God. Gays have something wrong with them and need therapy. Tattoo thieves and burn arsons. I don't know? Maybe that sounded like God in the 1800's, but now? I agree, barbaric. The Baha'i enforcers are going to tie a person to a stake and burn the person alive? And the thieves? I wonder if giving them a tattoo includes white-collar or religious thieves?

But then the plan for world peace. All the nations should disarm... almost. They can keep a few weapons to maintain order within their borders. Why? I thought everyone was going to love one another and live in peace? So, why the need for borders? Then, with their few weapons, all the nations are supposed to unite and put down any rogue nation that tries to take over. And I suppose that rogue nation got rid of most all of their weapons too? Yeah right, suppose they hid a few weapons of mass-destruction. They could hold the rest of the world hostage to their demands. Oh, but even in the U.S. lots of ordinary citizens won't disarm. And God expects the nations to disarm?

Baha'u'llah says he has the answers to solve the problems of the world. We can look at them and evaluate them. Will they work? Do they sound like they are from God? If God knew what it would take all along, why put humanity through all the wars and turmoil over the centuries just to get to this point? He couldn't have released the spiritual power needed to get people to love one another and to live in peace while they still had only bows and arrows? Given the track record of all the other religions, I remain skeptical that the Baha'i Faith will work... and is even for real.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right off the bat, Baha'is can't show that God really exists. The best proof is messengers. But what "proof" is that when all the things we have in the Scriptures about them contradicts the other messengers?

Baha'u'llah says he has the answers to solve the problems of the world. We can look at them and evaluate them. Will they work? Do they sound like they are from God? If God knew what it would take all along, why put humanity through all the wars and turmoil over the centuries just to get to this point? He couldn't have released the spiritual power needed to get people to love one another and to live in peace while they still had only bows and arrows? Given the track record of all the other religions, I remain skeptical that the Baha'i Faith will work... and is even for real.

It is offered the Message is suited to the age CG.

Pick an issue the world now has, issues that the 1800's did not have, nor were they considering, like National disarmament.

Baha'u'llah has given the solutions.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe you could accept that you will not always recieve the answer you want to hear.

I'm in the same position. I've been arguing/debating Baha'i here for years. And here are some of the issues...

Some Hindus believe Krishna is the incarnation of one of the Gods, and that he taught about reincarnation. Baha'is say that is not true. Some Christians believe Jesus is the only one that can pay for a person's sin and save them from hell and the lies of Satan... And some even say that Jesus is God. Baha'is say that none of that is true. Baha'is say they believe in the Bible, but Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed.

I'd agree that some people's attitudes could be better... more respectful. But it goes both ways, and it seems to me that it is more the responsibility of the God-believers to show God's love and have more respect and understanding towards others. You know, they'd be the ones that believe in treating people with kindness and love.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is offered the Message is suited to the age CG.

Pick an issue the world now has, issues that the 1800's did not have, nor were they considering, like National disarmament.

Baha'u'llah has given the solutions.

Regards Tony

Yeah, let's evaluate his proposed solutions. Like how do we get all people and nations to disarm? And then double check to make sure nobody is hiding some guns and nukes. Oh, and then what if we get invaded by space aliens? Throw rocks at them? Or do Baha'is believe they will be coming in peace and be more advanced than us?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm in the same position. I've been arguing/debating Baha'i here for years. And here are some of the issues...

Some Hindus believe Krishna is the incarnation of one of the Gods, and that he taught about reincarnation. Baha'is say that is not true. Some Christians believe Jesus is the only one that can pay for a person's sin and save them from hell and the lies of Satan... And some even say that Jesus is God. Baha'is say that none of that is true. Baha'is say they believe in the Bible, but Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed.

I'd agree that some people's attitudes could be better... more respectful. But it goes both ways, and it seems to me that it is more the responsibility of the God-believers to show God's love and have more respect and understanding towards others. You know, they'd be the ones that believe in treating people with kindness and love.

Personally I believe in being good to everybody, those Baha'is i know does not look like the oned you describing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, let's evaluate his proposed solutions. Like how do we get all people and nations to disarm? And then double check to make sure nobody is hiding some guns and nukes. Oh, and then what if we get invaded by space aliens? Throw rocks at them? Or do Baha'is believe they will be coming in peace and be more advanced than us?

God has always given us our choices CG.

The Baha'i are changing their own selves and then offering community based programs. Children's classes, youth empowerment, all virtue based.

The more we teach, the better chance the next generation has the chance of change.

There is nothing else we can do. People have to find the motivation themselves, I am no different.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sixt answer: because i have personal experiences that indicate there are other worlds unseen to the human eyes. And no i can not prove it to others since it is personal experiences.

Again, I've got a comment about this too. I know people that have had personal experiences that have "proven" to them that Jesus is real and is God. People that have recalled past lives, so they believe in reincarnation. One hippie lady said that she had incarnated into being a human on Earth from being a spirit person on Venus. Her boyfriend believed he was the reincarnation of Merlin the magician and so on.

Is it too much to ask for more credible and objective evidence rather than they "feel it" or had a "vision" or "My Scriptures or my prophet says so"?

And, even with the Baha'is, they don't believe in Ghulam Mirza Ahmad. He, like the Baha'i prophets, claimed to be the Madhi. So, even they evaluate and judge other people's claims to prophethood, and in this case, deemed him to be a false prophet. Maybe not you, and in a lot of ways, your way is a much nicer, spiritual way to live, but some of us are less spiritual, and in fact, very skeptical of the claims made by religious/spiritual people. So, we ask lots of questions, and yes, maybe get too demanding and reject too many of the answers we are given as being inadequate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, I've got a comment about this too. I know people that have had personal experiences that have "proven" to them that Jesus is real and is God. People that have recalled past lives, so they believe in reincarnation. One hippie lady said that she had incarnated into being a human on Earth from being a spirit person on Venus. Her boyfriend believed he was the reincarnation of Merlin the magician and so on.

The Messengers warn us to be aware that our own selves are very deceptive.

This is the lesson that Muhammad came to strengthen, that is if submission to tge Word of God.

We do not get Revelation from God, we can reflect what the Messenger has given, only by submitting to that Message.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

Again, I've got a comment about this too. I know people that have had personal experiences that have "proven" to them that Jesus is real and is God. People that have recalled past lives, so they believe in reincarnation. One hippie lady said that she had incarnated into being a human on Earth from being a spirit person on Venus. Her boyfriend believed he was the reincarnation of Merlin the magician and so on.

Is it too much to ask for more credible and objective evidence rather than they "feel it" or had a "vision" or "My Scriptures or my prophet says so"?

And, even with the Baha'is, they don't believe in Ghulam Mirza Ahmad. He, like the Baha'i prophets, claimed to be the Madhi. So, even they evaluate and judge other people's claims to prophethood, and in this case, deemed him to be a false prophet. Maybe not you, and in a lot of ways, your way is a much nicer, spiritual way to live, but some of us are less spiritual, and in fact, very skeptical of the claims made by religious/spiritual people. So, we ask lots of questions, and yes, maybe get too demanding and reject too many of the answers we are given as being inadequate.

The only answer i csn give you is that those personal experiences i have haf csn not be duplicated or shown to anybody else, due to the reason I experienced them was to evolve spiritual in my own life, those experience was ment only for me.

Just like the experiences that other religious or spiritual people have in their own life.

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally I believe in being good to everybody, those Baha'is i know does not look like the oned you describing.

Most Baha'is aren't that bad. But... the Baha'i Faith is still a religion that seeks converts. Maybe they don't get in a person's face like some Christians do, and tell them that without Jesus they are going to go to hell. But, nevertheless, Baha'is believe their religion has all the answers and is what is needed to bring peace and unity. They don't believe peace and unity will be brought about by what is being taught and believed in the other religions. So, essentially, they are the only ones that have the teachings for today. Do they? Maybe? But that's why I question them on various aspects of their beliefs and teachings.

So, again, I agree with you. People can be more respectful of each other. But, unlike you, I do see an attitude problem with some of the Baha'is. It's similar to the problem people have with Born-Again Christians... They come off as being right... To be the only ones that can "see" and everybody else is blind. That's not coming into the conversation respecting the other person. It is coming in believing they have superior knowledge, spiritual knowledge about the truth of God. I see it. If you don't, that's fine. Like I say, you're in a more spiritual place than some of us.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Most Baha'is aren't that bad. But... the Baha'i Faith is still a religion that seeks converts. Maybe they don't get in a person's face like some Christians do, and tell them that without Jesus they are going to go to hell. But, nevertheless, Baha'is believe their religion has all the answers and is what is needed to bring peace and unity. They don't believe peace and unity will be brought about by what is being taught and believed in the other religions. So, essentially, they are the only ones that have the teachings for today. Do they? Maybe? But that's why I question them on various aspects of their beliefs and teachings.

So, again, I agree with you. People can be more respectful of each other. But, unlike you, I do see an attitude problem with some of the Baha'is. It's similar to the problem people have with Born-Again Christians... They come off as being right... To be the only ones that can "see" and everybody else is blind. That's not coming into the conversation respecting the other person. It is coming in believing they have superior knowledge, spiritual knowledge about the truth of God. I see it. If you don't, that's fine. Like I say, you're in a more spiritual place than some of us.

I see people do come off like that too, but honestly none of the Baha'is I know do.

I kind of find it unfair to Baha'is that they are been seen this way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is what I asked:
Please explain YOUR understanding of the "Embodiment of Remembrance".
Can you do this?

What I answered with was MY understanding.
The Embodiment of Remembrance amongst men is the Manifestation of God for this age, Baha'u'llah.

MY understanding is that "Embodiment of Remembrance" is a title for Baha'u'llah.
That becomes clear if you read the full passage I cited. Why would I understand it in any way other than how it was intended to be understood in context?

 

[Riders]

Does the B'ahai Messiah meet up to the standards that Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mahommed, and other Messiahs do?

 

[samtonga43]

What I answered with was MY understanding.
The Embodiment of Remembrance amongst men is the Manifestation of God for this age, Baha'u'llah.

MY understanding is that "Embodiment of Remembrance" is a title for Baha'u'llah.
That becomes clear if you read the full passage I cited. Why would I understand it in any way other than how it was intended to be understood in context?

So, as you understand it, MrB is the visible form of a memory or recollection.
Is this how it is intended to be understood?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, again, I agree with you. People can be more respectful of each other. But, unlike you, I do see an attitude problem with some of the Baha'is. It's similar to the problem people have with Born-Again Christians... They come off as being right... To be the only ones that can "see" and everybody else is blind. That's not coming into the conversation respecting the other person. It is coming in believing they have superior knowledge, spiritual knowledge about the truth of God. I see it. If you don't, that's fine. Like I say, you're in a more spiritual place than some of us.

The Message speaks for itself CG.

By blaming Baha'i in any manner, does not change the Message.

Same as what Jesus offered, same result, the Message speaks for itself, we follow it, we have unity, we add our ideas, we have disunity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does the B'ahai Messiah meet up to the standards that Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mahommed, and other Messiahs do?

We make no difference with the Messengers Rider, they are as One, manifested in different ages. They are one and all from the same Holy Spirit, we are born of the human spirit.

Regards Tony