Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[danieldemol]

I see this oponion is based on a part misunderstanding of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. The most great peace will contain a structure yet to envisaged, so it cannot really be part of the discussions we can now have.

If the structure of the Baha'i vision of a "most great peace" is yet to be envisaged how do you know i have misunderstood it Tony?

The stubborn refusal of the UHoJ to rule out a future where non-Baha'i dont have a vote is very telling Tony.

If the UHoJ doesn't have the vision to rule out a future Baha'i society based on principles of injustice it should be treated with the suspicion it deserves by all the true servants of justice.

And really if it were a misunderstanding it should be easy for the UHoJ to easily publicly state that.

In my opinion.

 

[samtonga43]

I do not CARE what I said previously.

And there we have it.

 

[samtonga43]

The Writings of Baha'u'llah are not dogma, they are the Word of God. Dogma is man-made rules, Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, divine and human.

Not factual; only your opinion.

 

[samtonga43]

This is quite the admission.
Firstly, it illustrates your dishonesty as you repeatedly claimed that you had not said that you do not agree with everything Bahaullah wrote, despite actually saying it.
Secondly, it shows that whatever you say is utterly meaningless as you might say the exact opposite the next day (and often do).

This is literally insane!
How can you expect to debate people on your beliefs if you beliefs change from day to day?
How do you even know what you believe?

So one day you agree with everything that Bahaullah said and believe he was infallible, the next morning you wake up and you have changed your mind and think he was wrong about some stuff and therefore not an infallible messenger of god. A day later, you have changed your mind again.

@Seeker of White Light has a different approach to you. He does not blindly follow dogma. He cherry-picks scripture to suit the circumstances to avoid the kind of mess you keep getting yourself into.
You claim that Bahaullah was the infallible messenger of god and whatever he wrote is the truth and must be followed without question (although you also claim that he was wrong about some things - but you admit that you are wrong to think he is wrong, meaning that you don't actually think he was wrong ).

Completely irrational, is it not?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ultimately we don't know if there desire is for prestige, respect in the eyes of their peers etc Tony because you and I cannot see into the hearts.

Sure, we can not do this. Yet I know it is not in my heart, and I suspect as they are elected to the Universal House of Justice, that they proved by their faith and actions in service, that they were very humbled by the service they now face, that has no room for self based desire.

What can be seen however is the UHoJ's stubbornly clinging to a religious agenda in the face of the progress being made in wider society with respect to gay rights and the like and this leads an open minded person to suspect that their inner interests are not really to serve the best interests of all, but likely more self serving.

I would expect that only proves that this reflects that self desire does not come into the decisions of the Universal House of Justice.

All they can do is implement the law given by Baha'u'llah. Thus they are trustworthy and truthful in the role they serve in as an elected body.

Each one of them would have their own opinions on these subjects.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If the structure of the Baha'i vision of a "most great peace" is yet to be envisaged how do you know i have misunderstood it Tony?

Because you have brought in the need for people that are not Baha'i, to be given rights to vote in Baha'i elections. Would you like me to quote that? I am on my phone and it is difficult to do that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The stubborn refusal of the UHoJ to rule out a future where non-Baha'i dont have a vote is very telling Tony.

In my opinion.

I will leave it alone Daniel, as that statement has no foundation whatsoever.

The opinion you offer is a distortion of what was I previously offered.

Stay safe, stay happy, I see australia is moving into serious financial stress, which will be reflected globally. I see many economists have predicted this.

I watched this the other day, I had been thinking for many years that this would happen.

In the Baha'i Faith, there is no retirement.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Because you have brought in the need for people that are not Baha'i, to be given rights to vote in Baha'i elections. Would you like me to quote that? I am on my phone and it is difficult to do that.

Regards Tony

In a hypothetical world were we are ruled over by Baha'i that is precisely what is needed Tony, otherwise there is no out for the masses to change their minds if the Baha'i Faith turns out not to work out than by violent revolution and it seems trivially silly to design society that way.

So I propose that up to any alleged "most great peace" the Baha'i only can vote in Baha'i elections, then when the Baha'i becomes a public matter during this so called most great peace with the UHoJ as the supreme body empowered to legislate and execute the law of the land the general public get to have a say in whether it stays in power through peaceful means of voting.

Its only fair that if it effects us we get a say Tony, you know - justice and all that.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

I will leave it alone Daniel, as that statement has no foundation whatsoever.

Really, so the UHoJ *has* ruled out a future where non-Baha'i dont get a vote during the alleged "Most Great Peace"?!

If so please quote from them. I am more than happy to change my mind in exchange for a nice explicit quote saying non-Baha'i get to keep their voting rights in a Baha'i "Most Great Peace"

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

All they can do is implement the law given by Baha'u'llah. Thus they are trustworthy and truthful in the role they serve in as an elected body.

Each one of them would have their own opinions on these subjects.

Why do you think they haven't outsourced their morality to the central figures, has any member of the UHoJ ever said, my personal opinion is that gay rights should be allowed but the Baha'i teachings say no so I follow them even though they go against my own conscience on the matter?

In my opinion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where does it say in any of those definitions that dogma cannot be a religious belief? The two are often synonymous.

By looking at the definition dogma seems like the perfect word to describe what Baha'is do.

So you accept that a god existing and Bahaullah being a messenger of it is just your opinion. God might not exist and Bahaullah might have just been a dishonest or delusional man.

It's not an "opinion"... It is their dogmatic belief. This thing about it isn't a "fact" because it can't be proven, I don't think is what they believe. I think they believe that God is real and that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God is the absolute, without a doubt, Truth. The only problem, as with several other religious beliefs, it can't be shown to be real or true. All they can do is take it on faith. And again, why do Baha'is say science and religion go hand and hand. That religion without science goes off into superstitious dogmatic beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you cannot support your claim that modern society is morally bankrupt in a sexual context

As if Baha'is and Christians aren't doing it. But talk about cognitive dissonance... Some Christian friends were so filled with guilt for having given in to temptation. And, because the moral laws, don't work and have never worked, except maybe for a few super-committed believers, like that guy Origen, I don't think these moral laws are really from God. But then, how many religious leaders end up being caught "fooling" around. So, God made the hormones, then said don't do it, and complains when the hormones win out?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think they believe that God is real and that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God is the absolute, without a doubt, Truth.

We do believe that, and what if it is the Truth?

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah, so he never claimed to be infallible. It is just your opinion.
Why do you claim he was infallible?
Will that opinion change tomorrow?

Strange stuff. He's getting his information from an infallible God, but he himself is fallible? I don't think that's what Baha'is believe. There is some quote about an "infallible" divine physician that has the remedy to cure the world of all its ills. If Baha'u'llah ain't that divine physician then who do Baha'is believe is? What's sucks about "infallibility" is once a person has signed a declaration card and has become a Baha'i, they've, essentially, signed their mind away. They can't question it no more.

 

[CG Didymus]

Erm, selecting only the bits that suit you is the definition of "cherry-picking".

And what does that show? That maybe parts of the religion aren't all that good and useful? Can we do that with the Baha'i Faith and get away with it? Peace and unity sound good, but those moral laws are kind of sucky.

 

[Trailblazer]

By looking at the definition dogma seems like the perfect word to describe what Baha'is do.

No, it is the perfect word to describe what Christians do.

The Baha’i Faith has no dogmas because dogmas are man-made doctrines. What Baha’is believe is based upon the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Scriptures are not dogma.

Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
dogma means - Google Search

Definition of dogma

1a : something held as an established opinion especially : a definite authoritative tenet. b : a code of such tenets pedagogical dogma. c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.
Dogma Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

What is an example of dogma?

In short, all Dogmas are Doctrine, but not all Doctrine is Dogma. Examples of Dogmas: Papal Infallibility, the divinity of Christ, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary and the real Presence of the Eucharist.Nov 16, 2018
Deacon-structing Doctrine part 1: Doctrine vs. Dogma

The UHJ has no authority create dogmas.

What does the Universal House of Justice do?

The Universal House of Justice has noted its major general responsibilities to the Bahá'í community are: Enactment of legislation. Protecting and administrating the community. Answering obscure questions, and deciding upon matters which have caused disunity. Apr 20, 2022
Universal House of Justice - Bahaipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you feel physical pain when @Trailblazer and others, including yourself criticise my views or repeat lies about me?

I hate being repeatedly punched and kicked in the face. It is truly unpleasant.
Because of this, I do not enter the octagon and challenge MMA fighters. Those that do cannot complain about the punches and kicks they receive. And people in the crowd shouting "stop it you bully" at one of the contestants just look silly.

Although some Baha'is will deny it, Baha'is are told to go spread their Faith. I think many of these threads are meant to get people to ask the types of questions to where the Baha'is can say, "Ah, but look here. Here in the Baha'i writings is the answer...." Then it soon falls apart and becomes an argument. Usually something like, "Where's the proof?" "There is no proof.. Except I've proven it to myself." And how did you prove it to yourself?" "I'm not going to do your homework. You got to find the proof... Oh but he is the proof. His mission, his character, his writings." "No, that is not proof." "Yes, it is. You just don't like it."

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you tell if a self-proclaimed prophet really is a messenger of a real god?

Unbelievable... Here's a guy who made almost the same claim as Baha'u'llah...

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus (mathīl-iʿIsā), in fulfillment of Islam's latter day prophecies...​

One or both of them is not telling the truth here. I don't think Baha'is have any problem calling this other guy the fraud.

Also, Baha'is have no problem telling Christians how wrong they are about Jesus. They've said that he is not "God", he did not physically rise from the dead, he is not the "only" way, and he is not coming back. What pain and anguish those poor Christians must be feeling? But... those of us that don't believe in Christianity don't care. Some of us probably agree with the Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

But I haven't seen you telling others to stop attacking me. In fact, you have been upvoting their attacks. Something smells off...

Why should religion be protected from criticism?

Gee, you think that maybe at some time in history someone should have been a little critical of religion? Like maybe during the Inquisition?

 

[CG Didymus]

What "nasty characters"?

Yeah, he said I'm "harassing" and "attacking" them. And I don't even respond to one of the Baha'is here, so who was it I was harassing and attacking? Tony?