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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You said that your belief (opinion) is not a fact. This seems to imply that your belief is equivalent to your opinion.
Am I missing something here? A belief can be with or without there being empirical evidence. And an opinion can be with or without there being empirical evidence. It's just my opinion, but both can be based on facts or they might not be based on facts.

Except, when it comes to religions, it sure seems that the Scriptures and beliefs of the religion are taken and believed to be factual. Like when I argue with Baha'is about the resurrection of Jesus. Who can prove it? But, by what the gospel writers said, to me, it sounds like they were saying that Jesus came back to life in some kind of flesh and bone body. But, as you know, Baha'is say "no". That those verses were being metaphorical... in their opinion. (Based on the "fact" that they believe the physical body of Jesus is dead and gone).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And unless people become way more spiritual, I think those laws will fail to prevent people from doing all those things that God says he hates. And if people are doing those things, what is Baha'i leadership going to do? Strict enforcement of the laws?
That is the key.... Unless people become way more spiritual.
Unless they are Baha'is those Laws will not apply to them, and when they become Baha'is they understand that they have to obey those Laws so I do not think enforcement will be a problem.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Tony said no such thing. As usual you created a straw man.

People who are not Baha'is cannot vote in Baha'i elections because one has to be a Baha'i to vote in a Baha'i election. That is no different than saying that one has to be a United States citizen to vote in a United States election.
The problem is in a hypothetical "most great peace" one could be a global citizen and not have a vote in Baha'i elections as they are non-Baha'i and if the Baha'i Universal House of Justice is to be the supreme governing body of the planet that is very concerning amongst lovers of justice.

Doesn't matter what the majority are, the minority still deserve a vote.

Also the Baha'i writings have not anticipated any reversal, for example suppose the majority of people wanted the universal house of justice at first, then it was established as Supreme, then the majority lost their faith - you would end up with a majority of people having no vote in a world supreme body as they are no longer Baha'i.

Can you see the design flaw in the Baha'i "most great peace"?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you haven't noticed..i agree with their teaching, the teaching i have read so far anyway
Then I think it would be worth your time to go to some Baha'i meetings and get to know some of the local Baha'is in your area. One thing that they do have is a world-wide community of people that all share the same beliefs. Unlike some religions that if you go from one group to another, even in your own town, they might not agree with the other group.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down..." That is what concerns me.

The full quote is needed, it can have many meanings.

"The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth."

So one thought is that the beginning of all things is is the knowledge of the Messenger and the end of all things is submission unto all that Faith has to offer.

Mostly humanity is only at the beginning.of all things.

This is a choice which is never, and I say again, never enforced upon any person.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The problem is in a hypothetical ".

There is enough information to indicate your hypothetical is barking up the wrong tree.

Can you see the design flaw in the Baha'i "most great peace"?

No, not at all, as this has been covered and the minority, in the Baha'i Writings, will always have a voice. If I am not mistaken, they also will have a greater representation (from memory).

Regards Tony
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Then I think it would be worth your time to go to some Baha'i meetings and get to know some of the local Baha'is in your area. One thing that they do have is a world-wide community of people that all share the same beliefs. Unlike some religions that if you go from one group to another, even in your own town, they might not agree with the other group.
Yeah I would recommend joining a "study circle", @Seeker of White Light will soon find out how much he agrees with Baha'i that way.

In my opinion.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, not at all, as this has been covered and the minority, in the Baha'i Writings, will always have a voice. If I am not mistaken, they also will have a greater representation (from memory).

Regards Tony
Were does it say that non-Baha'i will have a vote in any hypothetical "most great peace" in the Baha'i writings?

Forgive me for not taking your word that it has been covered.

In my opinion.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The full quote is needed, it can have many meanings.

"The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth."

So one thought is that the beginning of all things is is the knowledge pf the Messenger and the end of all things is submission unto all that Faith has to offer.

Mostly humanity is only at the beginning.of all things.

This is a choice which is never, and I say again, never enforced upon any person.

Regards Tony
Not that the Baha'i Faith won't be different, but again... it's the track record of religions in the past. They have laws. Those laws get enforced... stoning, burning at the stake and who knows what else. Ideally, if God gave a law, people would strictly observe those laws. Except when it comes to sex. I don't see the majority of people strictly observing them. Some openly and lots of people in secret.

And then what good is the law? It's just making people into hypocrites. They act so holy in their religious gatherings, but then? Not so much. Will the Baha'i Faith be different? Hopefully considering how many leaders in other religions get caught fooling around and messin where they ought not to be a messin.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yeah I would recommend joining a "study circle", @Seeker of White Light will soon find out how much he agrees with Baha'i that way.

In my opinion.
Yeah, I liked the Baha'i Faith a lot... until a friend got born-again and took me to Bible studies. I liked that a lot too. But that was 50 years ago. After a while I became too skeptical to believe either one. But I do think he needs to give it a try and meet Baha'is in person and see how a community of Baha'is actually works.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Were does it say that non-Baha'i will have a vote in any hypothetical "most great peace" in the Baha'i writings?

Forgive me for not taking your word that it has been covered.

In my opinion.

There are quite a few, but many of those you read, you say that is interesting, and continue reading not noting the references.

This is one that shows we have no idea how this will eventually happen.

"Bahá’u’lláh declared the coming of the Most Great Peace. All the nations and peoples will come under the shadow of the Tent of the Great Peace and Harmony -- that is to say, by general election a Great Board of Arbitration shall be established, to settle all differences and quarrels between the Powers; so that disputes shall not end in war. Abdu’l-Bahá, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 29-30

So to me that is offering the Lesser Peace is the foundation of the most great peace. So during the centuries after the Lesser Peace, who knows how many are going to embrace the Message of Baha’u’llah? My guess would be a large proportion, but I see Islam and Christianity and other Faiths will still be around.

As for the Baha'i Administrative order. It is currently for Baha'i's. Yet we know it is in its embryonic stage. In the future there will be local houses of justice and we have no idea at this time, how they will be structured, and who will be able to participate. They are not restricted to 9 people.

I will see if I can find the quotes I am thinking of.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Not that the Baha'i Faith won't be different, but again... it's the track record of religions in the past. They have laws. Those laws get enforced... stoning, burning at the stake and who knows what else. Ideally, if God gave a law, people would strictly observe those laws. Except when it comes to sex. I don't see the majority of people strictly observing them. Some openly and lots of people in secret.

And then what good is the law? It's just making people into hypocrites. They act so holy in their religious gatherings, but then? Not so much. Will the Baha'i Faith be different? Hopefully considering how many leaders in other religions get caught fooling around and messin where they ought not to be a messin.

One need to look at the future with a glass half empty.

Baha'u'llah started all things new, we have another chance to get it right. So, we now know the problems, so let's first change our own selves before we condemn a future to our repeated mistakes.

Regards Tony
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There are quite a few, but many of those you read, you say that is interesting, and continue reading not noting the references.

This is one that shows we have no idea how this will eventually happen.

"Bahá’u’lláh declared the coming of the Most Great Peace. All the nations and peoples will come under the shadow of the Tent of the Great Peace and Harmony -- that is to say, by general election a Great Board of Arbitration shall be established, to settle all differences and quarrels between the Powers; so that disputes shall not end in war. Abdu’l-Bahá, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 29-30

So to me that is offering the Lesser Peace is the foundation of the most great peace. So during the centuries after the Lesser Peace, who knows how many are going to embrace the Message of Baha’u’llah? My guess would be a large proportion, but I see Islam and Christianity and other Faiths will still be around.

As for the Baha'i Administrative order. It is currently for Baha'i's. Yet we know it is in its embryonic stage. In the future there will be local houses of justice and we have no idea at this time, how they will be structured, and who will be able to participate. They are not restricted to 9 people.

I will see if I can find the quotes I am thinking of.

Regards Tony
Thanks Tony,
I will review the context of that quote, on the surface it does seem to indicate that the general population will have a say in establishing the court of arbitration, however I hit a small snag.

"Many published transcripts of talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the West were conveyed by a translator and some have not been authenticated with Persian transcripts. Shoghi Effendi did allow compilations of talks to be used, but unauthenticated talks can not be regarded as scripture, and the Universal House of Justice has stated that the distinction will have to be made in the future.[1]"

Source: Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith.

In other words we don't even know if Abdul-Baha in London is scripture yet according to my understanding.

In my opinion.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Were does it say that non-Baha'i will have a vote in any hypothetical "most great peace" in the Baha'i writings?

Forgive me for not taking your word that it has been covered.

In my opinion.

Now I have provided a quote on a topic you have brought up, I will talk about minorities, how they are to be seen, and how they are to be treated within the faith, which also shows how they will be regarded external from the faith.

This is a larger quote from Shoghi effendi, so I put it behind a spoiler and will take out an extract.

"To discriminate against any race, on the ground of its being socially backward, politically immature, and numerically in a minority, is a flagrant violation of the spirit that animates the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh. The consciousness of any division or cleavage in its ranks is alien to its very purpose, principles, and ideals. Once its members have fully recognized the claim of its Author, and, by identifying themselves with its Administrative Order, accepted unreservedly the principles and laws embodied in its teachings, every differentiation of class, creed, or color must automatically be obliterated, and never be allowed, under any pretext, and however great the pressure of events or of public opinion, to reassert itself. If any discrimination is at all to be tolerated, it should be a discrimination not against, but rather in favor of the minority, be it racial or otherwise. Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. So great and vital is this principle that in such circumstances, as when an equal number of ballots have been cast in an election, or where the qualifications for any office are balanced as between the various races, faiths or nationalities within the community, priority should unhesitatingly be accorded the party representing the minority, and this for no other reason except to stimulate and encourage it, and afford it an opportunity to further the interests of the community. In the light of this principle, and bearing in mind the extreme desirability of having the minority elements participate and share responsibility in the conduct of Bahá’í activity, it should be the duty of every Bahá’í community so to arrange its affairs that in cases where individuals belonging to the divers minority elements within it are already qualified and fulfill the necessary requirements, Bahá’í representative institutions, be they Assemblies, conventions, conferences, or committees, may have represented on them as many of these divers elements, racial or otherwise, as possible. The adoption of such a course, and faithful adherence to it, would not only be a source of inspiration and encouragement to those elements that are numerically small and inadequately represented, but would demonstrate to the world at large the universality and representative character of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, and the freedom of His followers from the taint of those prejudices which have already wrought such havoc in the domestic affairs, as well as the foreign relationships, of the nations.

".....every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. So great and vital is this principle that in such circumstances, as when an equal number of ballots have been cast in an election, or where the qualifications for any office are balanced as between the various races, faiths or nationalities within the community, priority should unhesitatingly be accorded the party representing the minority, and this for no other reason except to stimulate and encourage it, and afford it an opportunity to further the interests of the community...."

The Advent of Divine Justice | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
".. every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh .. as when an equal number of ballots have been cast in an election ..aaaa'
OK, that is the rule for Bahais, not for any other people.
And where the votes are not equal, the minority should not needle the majority with what they believe. No one is asking them to change their views.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Now I have provided a quote on a topic you have brought up, I will talk about minorities, how they are to be seen, and how they are to be treated within the faith, which also shows how they will be regarded external from the faith.

This is a larger quote from Shoghi effendi, so I put it behind a spoiler and will take out an extract.

"To discriminate against any race, on the ground of its being socially backward, politically immature, and numerically in a minority, is a flagrant violation of the spirit that animates the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh. The consciousness of any division or cleavage in its ranks is alien to its very purpose, principles, and ideals. Once its members have fully recognized the claim of its Author, and, by identifying themselves with its Administrative Order, accepted unreservedly the principles and laws embodied in its teachings, every differentiation of class, creed, or color must automatically be obliterated, and never be allowed, under any pretext, and however great the pressure of events or of public opinion, to reassert itself. If any discrimination is at all to be tolerated, it should be a discrimination not against, but rather in favor of the minority, be it racial or otherwise. Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. So great and vital is this principle that in such circumstances, as when an equal number of ballots have been cast in an election, or where the qualifications for any office are balanced as between the various races, faiths or nationalities within the community, priority should unhesitatingly be accorded the party representing the minority, and this for no other reason except to stimulate and encourage it, and afford it an opportunity to further the interests of the community. In the light of this principle, and bearing in mind the extreme desirability of having the minority elements participate and share responsibility in the conduct of Bahá’í activity, it should be the duty of every Bahá’í community so to arrange its affairs that in cases where individuals belonging to the divers minority elements within it are already qualified and fulfill the necessary requirements, Bahá’í representative institutions, be they Assemblies, conventions, conferences, or committees, may have represented on them as many of these divers elements, racial or otherwise, as possible. The adoption of such a course, and faithful adherence to it, would not only be a source of inspiration and encouragement to those elements that are numerically small and inadequately represented, but would demonstrate to the world at large the universality and representative character of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, and the freedom of His followers from the taint of those prejudices which have already wrought such havoc in the domestic affairs, as well as the foreign relationships, of the nations.

".....every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. So great and vital is this principle that in such circumstances, as when an equal number of ballots have been cast in an election, or where the qualifications for any office are balanced as between the various races, faiths or nationalities within the community, priority should unhesitatingly be accorded the party representing the minority, and this for no other reason except to stimulate and encourage it, and afford it an opportunity to further the interests of the community...."

The Advent of Divine Justice | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony
Thanks for your efforts Tony, I will review it when I get the chance, but here is a question to think about. It is talking about "every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it."

So does this mean we are talking about different faiths "under the banner of Baha'u'llah" ie the Baha'i-Christian, Baha'i-Muslim etc, or is it a reference to faith communities that are not enlisted under the banner of Baha'u'llah such as the non-Baha'i Muslim, the non-Baha'i Christian, the non-Baha'i atheist etc? (forgive me referencing atheists as a "faith community", just trying to work out how you fitted them and others into the quote in it's context).
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Thanks Tony,
I will review the context of that quote, on the surface it does seem to indicate that the general population will have a say in establishing the court of arbitration, however I hit a small snag.

"Many published transcripts of talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the West were conveyed by a translator and some have not been authenticated with Persian transcripts. Shoghi Effendi did allow compilations of talks to be used, but unauthenticated talks can not be regarded as scripture, and the Universal House of Justice has stated that the distinction will have to be made in the future.[1]"

Source: Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith.

In other words we don't even know if Abdul-Baha in London is scripture yet according to my understanding.

In my opinion.

The way I currently understand it, is that the Most Great Peace will morph out of the Lesser Peace. The Building of this lesser peace will be by the Nations of the World and not the Baha'i.

My guess will be that eventually the governments of the elected world legislative will turn to the Universal of Justice for Guidance. As the faith grows and becomes a majority in some locations, then the local communities will end up transitioning from Local Spiritual Assemblies to local houses of justice and then adjudicate on Baha'i Law, for those that are Baha'i. Those that are the minority in that town will still be subject to and living under National or state law, to which the Baha'i will also be subject to.

So it is really a future we can not envisage, I am not sure there is even an example available currently in the world, there may be as I think I recently saw a video where one village has become a majority and there is a consultative process with the remainder, maybe the Congo?

This is an event where Baha'i organised group consultations.

Village chiefs discuss the future at unprecedented gathering in India | BWNS

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
OK, that is the rule for Bahais, not for any other people.
And where the votes are not equal, the minority should not needle the majority with what they believe. No one is asking them to change their views.

Thanks for your efforts Tony, I will review it when I get the chance, but here is a question to think about. It is talking about "every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it."

So does this mean we are talking about different faiths "under the banner of Baha'u'llah" ie the Baha'i-Christian, Baha'i-Muslim etc, or is it a reference to faith communities that are not enlisted under the banner of Baha'u'llah such as the non-Baha'i Muslim, the non-Baha'i Christian, the non-Baha'i atheist etc? (forgive me referencing atheists as a "faith community", just trying to work out how you fitted them and others into the quote in it's context).

Yes, you are correct with this quote, it is about the minorities that come under the umbrella of the teachings and laws of Baha'u'llah.

I would think it fair to assume, that if you are not a Baha'i, that you would not want to be subject to Baha'i Law? Is that Correct?

If so, I am offering that is the case, well into the future, those that are not a Baha'i and all Baha'i will have to obey the laws of the land. It is only the Baha'i, as each governments allows, that will be subjected to Baha'i law in addition to the laws of the land, if they have not been made the same.

This already happens around the world, in some minor ways.

Regards Tony
 
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