Who was Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

Debate (dialectic) is how differences of opinion are resolved among critical thinkers. It a constructive, cooperative process, not a war.

And when have Baha'is tried to find points of agreement? All I've heard for a couple of years now is, "God is real, but we can't prove it. But there is evidence. The evidence is his messengers." And they use their prophet as the example... his writings, his character, his mission? What "points" of agreement are they trying to find by claiming those things to Atheists?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is naive. Why would other world nations need to obey the rules of a world government if they are capable of cooperation in a peaceful way already? How would you enforce peace on a rebellious nation that starts to produce weapons to attack neighbors? The only way to have global peace is citizens electing peaceful and rational leaders. As we see in the USA there are many ideological citizens who will vote for unfit leaders like Trump. Or even Bush/Cheney. Had Gore been declared the winner I doubt the USA would have gone to war in the Middle East.

The problem is not governments. The problem is irrational citizens.

And why, I wonder, would any of the powerful nations listen and obey some "World Tribunal"? The U.S. would probably be the first to disobey any law that goes against American beliefs and values... Like guns. This tribunal is supposedly going to have all nations disarm?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Moreover, I consider it [Christianity] an irrational and arrogant belief

Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why?

Irrational because physical bodies do not rise from the dead and come back to life.
Arrogant because Christians believe Revelation is now fully complete and that Jesus is the only way to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Irrational because physical bodies do not rise from the dead and come back to life.
Arrogant because Christians believe Revelation is now fully complete and that Jesus is the only way to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I know such miracles are not important to you (it seems Baha'u'llah couldn't/didn't perform any) but according to your own teachings belief in the possibility of such events is nothing irrational.

The operation of miracles is not necessarily irrational or illogical. It does by no means constitute a limitation of the Omnipotence of God. The belief in the possibilities of miracles, on the contrary, implies that God’s power is beyond any limitation whatsoever. For it is only logical to believe that the Creator, Who is the sole Author of all the laws operating in the universe, is above them and can, therefore, if He deems it necessary, alter them at His Own Will. We, as humans, cannot possibly attempt to read His Mind, and to fully grasp His Wisdom. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance)​

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The appearance of other miracles, which have been attributed to the prophets, should not be categorically denied, because human reason is not the balance. (Baha'u'llah, Tablet of the River)​

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The same "arrogance" is in the belief that Baha’u’llah is the only messenger for this age and only his interpretation of all other sacred scriptures is valid.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What does that have to do with anything? It seems your frustration is getting the best of you.

So have I, but it is a delusion to say this is God Himself. In my view, you are experiencing God indirectly. I remember a time when I read a Writing by Baha'u'llah and suddenly out of the blue, I had an intense love for God and Baha'u'llah, and I couldn't tell the difference between the two. I was in ecstasy. Another time I was in the Shrine of Baha'u'llah, and this time my spiritual experience took the form of a deep peace. Before I entered that Shrine, I was agitated. It depends on my receptivity and the grace of God but sometimes when I recite a revealed prayer by Baha'u'llah, I get a spiritual high that is milder than those two experiences.

In my view, what is being experienced in the Holy Spirit, not God Himself. He is too exalted to be experienced directly. We would be burnt to cinders.

Other people experience feelings like that from other, non-religious experiences.

Ever been to a rave? Ever done really intense sports?

 

[F1fan]

Irrational because physical bodies do not rise from the dead and come back to life.

But that is what their texts say, and they interpret it in their way.

Arrogant because Christians believe Revelation is now fully complete and that Jesus is the only way to God.

But they believe they have adequate evidence, so why shouldn't they?

 

[CG Didymus]

I know such miracles are not important to you (it seems Baha'u'llah couldn't/didn't perform any) but according to your own teachings belief in the possibility of such events is nothing irrational.

The operation of miracles is not necessarily irrational or illogical. It does by no means constitute a limitation of the Omnipotence of God. The belief in the possibilities of miracles, on the contrary, implies that God’s power is beyond any limitation whatsoever. For it is only logical to believe that the Creator, Who is the sole Author of all the laws operating in the universe, is above them and can, therefore, if He deems it necessary, alter them at His Own Will. We, as humans, cannot possibly attempt to read His Mind, and to fully grasp His Wisdom. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance)​

​

The appearance of other miracles, which have been attributed to the prophets, should not be categorically denied, because human reason is not the balance. (Baha'u'llah, Tablet of the River)​

​

The same "arrogance" is in the belief that Baha’u’llah is the only messenger for this age and only his interpretation of all other sacred scriptures is valid.

Yet, the Baha'is believe that Mary became pregnant without having sex with a male human. Here is Abdul Baha's explanation of the resurrection....

..The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

https://bahai-library.com/compilation_resurrection_christ​

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104​

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And this is a "rational" explanation? To me, if it didn't happen as reported in all four gospels, then the most "rational" explanation is that the gospel writers made it up.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is what their texts say, and they interpret it in their way.

They are free to interpret the text any way they want to, but that does not mean a man really rose from the dead after three days.

But they believe they have adequate evidence, so why shouldn't they?

They can 'believe' anything they want to believe but there is no evidence that Jesus is the only way to God and that there will never be another Messenger of God after Him. In fact, their own Bible contains evidence to the contrary.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know such miracles are not important to you (it seems Baha'u'llah couldn't/didn't perform any) but according to your own teachings belief in the possibility of such events is nothing irrational.

If you really think that Baha'u'llah did not perform miracles, think again. Jesus has no corner on the market of miracles.
Baha'u'llah performed many miracles. However.....

Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.​

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None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them.​

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With this caveat in mind, it’s fun to look back on our history, and see how the Central Figures handled miracles.​

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To continue reading: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith​

The same "arrogance" is in the belief that Baha’u’llah is the only messenger for this age and only his interpretation of all other sacred scriptures is valid.

That is not arrogance because Baha'u'llah IS the Messenger of God for this age. The hundred-dollar difference is that Baha'u'llah never claimed to be (thus Baha'is don't believe) that Baha'u'llah is the one and only true Messenger of God. Baha'is believe that the other Messengers were just as valid and that there will be more Messengers sent by God in the future.

If you cannot see the difference I think you need a new glasses prescription.

No, we do not believe that only Baha'u'llah's interpretation of all other sacred scriptures is valid. Baha'is are free to make their own interpretations.

 

[F1fan]

They are free to interpret the text any way they want to, but that does not mean a man really rose from the dead after three days.

It's no more absurd than believing a God exists, which is something you do. There's no adequate evidence for either for rational people to conclude they are true.

They can 'believe' anything they want to believe but there is no evidence that Jesus is the only way to God and that there will never be another Messenger of God after Him. In fact, their own Bible contains evidence to the contrary.

Since when does a lack of adequate evidence stop religious people from believing what they want to believe? You have no better evidence for your religious beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's no more absurd than believing a God exists, which is something you do. There's no adequate evidence for either for rational people to conclude they are true.

There is nothing absurd about believing that God exists, since there is evidence that God exists even though there is no proof.
Just because there is no evidence that is adequate for you to believe in God that doesn't mean there is no adequate evidence for anyone to believe in God.

Since when does a lack of adequate evidence stop religious people from believing what they want to believe? You have no better evidence for your religious beliefs.

There is no lack of adequate evidence, and that is why 93% of people believe in God. All those people don't just believe on no evidence.
The Baha'i Faith has much better evidence to support it than any other religion in history.

 

[F1fan]

There is nothing absurd about believing that God exists,

Not to believers in whatever God they believe in.

since there is evidence that God exists even though there is no proof.

The same as Jesus resurrecting.

Just because there is no evidence that is adequate for you to believe in God that doesn't mean there is no adequate evidence for anyone to believe in God.

The same for those who believe in Jesus. It's adequate for them, so why does your disagreement matter?

There is no lack of adequate evidence, and that is why 93% of people believe in God.

False, there's more than one version of God, and your comment suggests it is all the same. This is untrue. And your stat sounds a bit too high, but who cares what the majority believe? Irrelevant.

All those people don't just believe on no evidence.

Yes. If a dozen will believe, why not billions?

The Baha'i Faith has much better evidence to support it than any other religion in history.

That's your opinion, and of course I'll bet other theists think the same of their evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

False, there's more than one version of God, and your comment suggests it is all the same.

Same old line. I'll bet there were cultures that 100% of the people believed in their Gods as being real. Until they were conquered by people that believed in a different God and forced them to stop worshipping their old Gods and worship the God of the conquerors.

So, what was this adequate evidence? The Bible? The Quran? The Baha'i writings? For most people, it is that they are told God is real. But how real is their God to them? Too many people don't act as if they really believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same for those who believe in Jesus. It's adequate for them, so why does your disagreement matter?

The Bible is adequate evidence that God exists, but it is not adequate evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

False, there's more than one version of God, and your comment suggests it is all the same. This is untrue.

There is only one God but there are different Messengers and different religions, and that is what there is more than one version of God among believers.

And your stat sounds a bit too high, but who cares what the majority believe? Irrelevant.

Even if the stat is too high, most people in the world believe in God. That doesn't prove that God exists but it shows that there must be some evidence that God exists.

That's your opinion, and of course I'll bet other theists think the same of their evidence.

It is totally irrelevant what people believe about their evidence. Their evidence is not as good for many reasons.
A Baha'i called Wanderer-1919 outlined the evidence for the Baha'i Faith on a post on this website.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/12uilkc

 

[Sedim Haba]

I don't know and I don't even care​

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

It is totally irrelevant what people believe about their evidence. Their evidence is not as good for many reasons.
...

Yeah, that is so for all people except the special ones, because they are the special we and all other humans are them.

 

[F1fan]

The Bible is adequate evidence that God exists, but it is not adequate evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

Be accurate here. This is just your opinion. You have a bad habit of not applying critical thinking consistently.

The Bible isn't adequate for critical thinkers for any religious concept, but it is adequate for those who want to believe, whether it's God, Jesus as savior, Jesus was resurrected guy, that Adam and Eve wre the first humans, etc. Christians demonstrate you are wrong because there is a large segment who are convinced that Jesus came back to life, just as you believe in your religious concepts.

There is only one God

Wrong, Hindus have hundreds of gods.

but there are different Messengers and different religions, and that is what there is more than one version of God among believers.

This is only your religious belief, and it is irrlevant to anyone outside of Baha'i.

Even if the stat is too high, most people in the world believe in God. That doesn't prove that God exists but it shows that there must be some evidence that God exists.

There's no evidence that any of the many thousands of gods in human lore exist. The reason many still believe is due to culture and how the human brain evolved to be tribal and conformist to norms. And as noted, critical thinking is a learned skill unlike belief. So until more people are taught to think they will be susceptible to the religious belief of the society they live in.

It is totally irrelevant what people believe about their evidence.

Except for you, right?

Their evidence is not as good for many reasons.

Except for you, right?

A Baha'i called Wanderer-1919 outlined the evidence for the Baha'i Faith on a post on this website.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/12uilkc

Who cares? It's not objective nor reasoned. It's just some guy desperate for meaning deciding some doma has meaning to him. Big deal. This isn't an argument. I've read a lot of testimonies of sad, depressed, desperate, suicidal, empty people who found some religious dogma that made them suddenly feel significant. They jump in with both feet and become true believers. Notice how they disagree? If they found the "truth" there would be an incredible consistency. There isn't. It seems to be that there's a buffet of religious belief out there and sad, desperate people will eventually stumble upon something they like.

What I dont understand is why people are so willing to be followers. They certainly show themselves as having blind spots to their own religion, as you do by insisting there's adequate evidence for a God, but not that Jesus came back to life. There's no adequate evidence for either, but you are invested in one of those ideas but not the other, so you apply bias.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Be accurate here. This is just your opinion. You have a bad habit of not applying critical thinking consistently.

The Bible isn't adequate for critical thinkers for any religious concept, but it is adequate for those who want to believe, whether it's God, Jesus as savior, Jesus was resurrected guy, that Adam and Eve wre the first humans, etc. Christians demonstrate you are wrong because there is a large segment who are convinced that Jesus came back to life, just as you believe in your religious concepts.

Wrong, Hindus have hundreds of gods.

This is only your religious belief, and it is irrlevant to anyone outside of Baha'i.

There's no evidence that any of the many thousands of gods in human lore exist. The reason many still believe is due to culture and how the human brain evolved to be tribal and conformist to norms. And as noted, critical thinking is a learned skill unlike belief. So until more people are taught to think they will be susceptible to the religious belief of the society they live in.

Except for you, right?

Except for you, right?

Who cares? It's not objective nor reasoned. It's just some guy desperate for meaning deciding some doma has meaning to him. Big deal. This isn't an argument. I've read a lot of testimonies of sad, depressed, desperate, suicidal, empty people who found some religious dogma that made them suddenly feel significant. They jump in with both feet and become true believers. Notice how they disagree? If they found the "truth" there would be an incredible consistency. There isn't. It seems to be that there's a buffet of religious belief out there and sad, desperate people will eventually stumble upon something they like.

What I dont understand is why people are so willing to be followers. They certainly show themselves as having blind spots to their own religion, as you do by insisting there's adequate evidence for a God, but not that Jesus came back to life. There's no adequate evidence for either, but you are invested in one of those ideas but not the other, so you apply bias.

Still waiting and get more sad and desperate. So save me, because if you don't, it is on you.

 

[F1fan]

Yeah, that is so for all people except the special ones, because they are the special we and all other humans are them.

Exactly, the eye of the beholder

Still waiting and get more sad and desperate. So save me, because if you don't, it is on you.

Save you? Isn't that your God's (you) job?