Who was Baha'u'llah?

[CG Didymus]

Who cares what be believed? It's irrelevant.

From the Kitab-i-Iqan...

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.”4​

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This is in the beginning of the book. A Noah story where he's still over 900 years old but there's no boat and no flood? Where did this story come from? And, I'd imagine, that Baha'is take this as the "true" story of Noah, and the story in the Bible was a fictional, symbolic story?

 

[Trailblazer]

So why are you so insistent in your posting? Looks as if you are ignoring his advice.

Not anymore. I'm taking His advice.
See ya around.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is entertaining theater for critical thinkers.

Too bad the show is over. Maybe you can find another Baha'i to entertain you, but I doubt it.

 

[F1fan]

Not anymore. I'm taking His advice.
See ya around.

See how useful atheists can be to help guide you to a more reasonable position?

 

[Trailblazer]

See how useful atheists can be to help guide you to a more reasonable position?

No, they are not useful but Baha'u'llah is.
My position stands.

 

[F1fan]

From the Kitab-i-Iqan...

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.”4​

​

This is in the beginning of the book. A Noah story where he's still over 900 years old but there's no boat and no flood? Where did this story come from? And, I'd imagine, that Baha'is take this as the "true" story of Noah, and the story in the Bible was a fictional, symbolic story?

This is an excellent example of Baha'u'llah not being credible. Critical thinkers see this sample as disqualifying since the Noah myth was likley a version of the Legend of Gilgamesh. And the story is implausible, and contrary to facts. So why would a person believe in Baha'i? Not through critical thinking.

 

[F1fan]

No, they are not useful but Baha'u'llah is.
My position stands.

And she's already back. Just can't help yourself. Sell, sell, sell.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If on a sunny day in summer at noon, I tell someone look, here is the sun, in the middle of sky, if he is not willing to accept it, he can deny it. He can say, no, there is no sun, you are imagining things

Sometimes it feels like we are being told that the sun is there, but it’s just a streetlight.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Being a jerk would have to have been the intention of the author of the gospel, but was that really his intention, to make Jesus look bad?

Villains don’t think that they are villains. Some might, but most think they are the heroes.

 

[F1fan]

Sometimes it feels like we are being told that the sun is there, but it’s just a streetlight.

"That just proves you don't get it. You need to have faith that it's the sun!"

 

[Trailblazer]

This is in the beginning of the book. A Noah story where he's still over 900 years old but there's no boat and no flood?

As I told you before, what Baha'u'llah wrote: "Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call" does not mean that Noah lived to be over 900 years old. It means that the Dispensation of Noah lasted that long. No, there was no boat and no flood mentioned by Baha'u'llah becaue even if there was a flood, it was not worldwide and it was not important to the story of Noah.

Where did this story come from? And, I'd imagine, that Baha'is take this as the "true" story of Noah, and the story in the Bible was a fictional, symbolic story?

Whatever Baha'u'llah wrote came from God so it is much more accurate than anything in the Bible, since ordinary men wrote the Bible, not Messengers of God, and we don't even know who those authors were.... Christians are just supposed to take it for-granted that these men were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The story in the Bible was a fictional symbolic story and that is not only a Baha'i belief. Scientists and historians have concluded that there was no worldwide flood.

Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp

bibleinterp.arizona.edu

Twenty-one Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

 

[CG Didymus]

This is an excellent example of Baha'u'llah not being credible. Critical thinkers see this sample as disqualifying since the Noah myth was likley a version of the Legend of Gilgamesh. And the story is implausible, and contrary to facts. So why would a person believe in Baha'i? Not through critical thinking.

Well Islam, Christianity and Judaism all believe in the flood. The Baha'is, though, make the ark and the flood symbolic. So, good for them for not taking the story literally, but then, instead of just calling it a fictional, mythical story, they try and come up with some profound symbolic meaning.

When I became a Baha’i, however, the concept of an ark as a symbol of spiritual protection and safety from unwise actions made much more sense. Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, used the symbol of the ark in his writings...​

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This Baha'is also says this and quotes Abdul Baha...

First, we need to acknowledge one of the great gifts of the Baha’i revelation – the philosophical basis and principles of the Faith are based on sound reasoning, science, and what is plainly visible and universally known in the modern world. Abdu’l-Baha, the interpreter of the Baha’i writings, spoke about this theme, describing how religion will no longer be a positive force in the lives of people and society if it fails to take into consideration modern scientific knowledge and adheres to literal teachings and stories from the past. In a talk he gave to the Unitarian society in Boston in 1912, Abdu’l-Baha said:​

​

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. … In view of this, shall blind imitations of ancestral forms and theological interpretations continue to guide and control the religious life and spiritual development of humanity today? Shall man gifted with the power of reason unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this century of effulgent reality? Unquestionably this will not satisfy men of science, for when they find premise or conclusion contrary to present standards of proof and without real foundation, they reject that which has been formerly accepted as standard and correct and move forward from new foundations.​

What do you think of that? "Based on sound reasoning" and science? That "religion will no longer be a positive force"? And if it "fails to take into consideration modern scientific knowledge"?

I guess that only applies to other religions and not to the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

And she's already back. Just can't help yourself. Sell, sell, sell.

Here's what she said to me... "As I told you before, what Baha'u'llah wrote: "Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call" does not mean that Noah lived to be over 900 years old. It means that the Dispensation of Noah lasted that long. No, there was no boat and no flood mentioned by Baha'u'llah becaue even if there was a flood, it was not worldwide and it was not important to the story of Noah."

But this is what I found...

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."​

​

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)​

​

Sure looks like it says that Baha'is can't interpret that 950 years thing of Baha'u'llah as the "dispensation" of Noah. No boat or flood was not important to the story of Noah? That's the whole point of the story of Noah. But again, as if it's real. Why can't Baha'is just say that those Bible stories are fiction. And the great, profound meaning to the fictional story is that those that didn't listen and obey God all drowned.

 

[F1fan]

Well Islam, Christianity and Judaism all believe in the flood. The Baha'is, though, make the ark and the flood symbolic. So, good for them for not taking the story literally, but then, instead of just calling it a fictional, mythical story, they try and come up with some profound symbolic meaning.

When I became a Baha’i, however, the concept of an ark as a symbol of spiritual protection and safety from unwise actions made much more sense. Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, used the symbol of the ark in his writings...​

​

If the writers of the Bible and the Baha'i texts really wanted a lucid and clear message they would avoid using symbolisms that are not clearly explained. Even what you write above about the Ark being spiritual protection is way too vague to be useful. I have no idea what spiritual protection is supposed to mean. As a critical thinker who makes his assessment considering many likely motives of why someone would say such a thing I note that one option is control over the audience. To my mind this suggests an exploitation of anxiety and fear, and making claims like "spiritual protection" could draw in vulnerable people. It might be a faithful meaning to the original stories, that likely goes back to Gilgamesh.

Frankly if Baha'u'llah was going to be a messenger for a modern age why rely so much on symbolisms and not facts and reason? It seems out of touch for someone who should understand humanity is more educated and works best with facts and reasoning. This was post Enlightenment.

This Baha'is also says this and quotes Abdul Baha...

First, we need to acknowledge one of the great gifts of the Baha’i revelation – the philosophical basis and principles of the Faith are based on sound reasoning, science, and what is plainly visible and universally known in the modern world. Abdu’l-Baha, the interpreter of the Baha’i writings, spoke about this theme, describing how religion will no longer be a positive force in the lives of people and society if it fails to take into consideration modern scientific knowledge and adheres to literal teachings and stories from the past. In a talk he gave to the Unitarian society in Boston in 1912, Abdu’l-Baha said:​

​

What do you think of that? "Based on sound reasoning" and science? That "religion will no longer be a positive force"? And if it "fails to take into consideration modern scientific knowledge"?

Kinda funny I just commented on how symbolisms are obsolete as a way to deliver clear meaning and messages. We have many languages that are adequate to create coherent messages.

I guess that only applies to other religions and not to the Baha'i Faith.

Yeah, Baha'i seem to think they are above it all. They have two huge problems: a God concept and bigotry. These two issues are deal breakers for their goals, and trying to say that religion won't be a positive force is like cutting off their own heads. God = religion. There is no escape from this.

 

[F1fan]

As I told you before, what Baha'u'llah wrote: "Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call" does not mean that Noah lived to be over 900 years old. It means that the Dispensation of Noah lasted that long. No, there was no boat and no flood mentioned by Baha'u'llah becaue even if there was a flood, it was not worldwide and it was not important to the story of Noah.

Whatever Baha'u'llah wrote came from God so it is much more accurate than anything in the Bible, since ordinary men wrote the Bible, not Messengers of God, and we don't even know who those authors were.... Christians are just supposed to take it for-granted that these men were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The story in the Bible was a fictional symbolic story and that is not only a Baha'i belief. Scientists and historians have concluded that there was no worldwide flood.

If you have a message for humanity why are you referring to fictional characters at all, especially when many think this was a real person and a real event? God would know this and avoid this error.

 

[Trailblazer]

But this is what I found...

"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."​

​

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)​

​

Sure looks like it says that Baha'is can't interpret that 950 years thing of Baha'u'llah as the "dispensation" of Noah.

Thanks for correcting me.... I was only guessing when I said it means His dispensation, but we still do not know what Baha'u'llah was alluding to in The Kitab-i-Iqan. Maybe @InvestigateTruth or @Truthseeker might know.

No boat or flood was not important to the story of Noah? That's the whole point of the story of Noah. But again, as if it's real. Why can't Baha'is just say that those Bible stories are fiction. And the great, profound meaning to the fictional story is that those that didn't listen and obey God all drowned.

That is what the Baha'is say. We say they are fiction when we say they are not literally true.

Noah’s Ark and the Value of Spiritual Symbolism

 

[Trailblazer]

If you have a message for humanity why are you referring to fictional characters at all, especially when many think this was a real person and a real event? God would know this and avoid this error.

Noah was not a fictional character, He was a real Prophet of God.
The fiction is what is written about Noah in the Bible, stories of the worldwide flood and Noah's Ark.

Baha'is are instructed to entirely disregard the tales and traditions in the Bible.

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

 

[CG Didymus]

If the writers of the Bible and the Baha'i texts really wanted a lucid and clear message they would avoid using symbolisms that are not clearly explained.

The Baha'is have found a way to make the Bible acceptable for their followers without having to really believe it. I doubt very much that a couple of thousand years ago the Israelites were passing down symbolic stories about where they came from and what they did and what their God did for them and expected from them. But what is really strange to me is how Baha'is still say the characters in those stories were real.

 

[Windwalker]

Villains don’t think that they are villains. Some might, but most think they are the heroes.

Yeah, I don't read the Jesus of the gospels as a villain. You'd have to read the Buddha as a jerk and a villain too, considering his teachings paralleled Jesus' in some remarkably similar ways. That's just a bit too cynical for my rational mind to get behind.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for correcting me.... I was only guessing when I said it means His dispensation, but we still do not know what Baha'u'llah was alluding to in The Kitab-i-Iqan. Maybe @InvestigateTruth or @Truthseeker might know.

That is what the Baha'is say. We say they are fiction when we say they are not literally true.

Noah’s Ark and the Value of Spiritual Symbolism

I think It may still mean Dispensation of Noah. Shoghi Effendi is just teaching us that if something is not officially interpreted in Bahai Scriptures we should not think our interpretation is necessarily true, because only Abdulbaha's interpretation is considered infallible.