Who was Baha'u'llah?

[InvestigateTruth]

Interesting!.

Here, the majority of people who reject Baha'u'llah, are of the opinion that Baha'u'llah sincerely believed He was a Messenger of God, but He was delusional, as opposed to being a Liar knowingly.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I voted for the first one. Not because I am a Baha'i, but because I am an Omnist and I see all people as a Manifestation of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I voted for the first one. Not because I am a Baha'i, but because I am an Omnist and I see all people as a Manifestation of God.

Do you believe all people are equally Manifestation of God, or some people are more manifesting God than others?

 

[F1fan]

It is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions to say that I post often about what I believe about God because it matters to me what other people believe about God, since there could be other reasons why I post often. Actually, it does not matter to me what other people believe about God

You and your random fallacy generator. I made an observation of your behavior that contradicted your statement.

Humans are fallible thus they are prone to err.
Critical thinkers are human beings.
Therefore critical thinkers are prone to err.

By definition critical thinkers are skilled to avoid common errors by unskilled people.

Then why is it that critical thinkers cannot understand such simple logic, but rather insist they are never wrong?

They don’t claim any such thing. They simply use their skills to point out errors in the posts of others, of which you are included. You don’t like being criticized, and you react by making more errors. You are an error generator. And the more mistakes you get caught making the more mistakes you make.

No, there is no way to resolve what believers believe about God. All you can do is think for yourself and stop concerning yourself with what believers believe.

So what is your gripe with atheists thinking for themselves?

If atheists were logical they would be able to understand that if there is only one God there is only one God, even though believers have different beliefs about that God. Then they might try to understand why believers have different beliefs about that God, even though there is only one God.

But atheists do understand why there’s a broad spectrum of believers, and the best answer is by following history and science, not taking any arbitrary religion at face value. Theists have a problem with natural answers. They want their divine truth, but it just lacks evidence for critical thinking.

Moses is considered fictional by you, but that does not mean that Moses was fictional unless you can prove that Moses did not exist.
Even if the stories about Moses are not all true, that does not mean that Moses did not exist.

False yet again. I defer to experts who conclude Moses was fictional. Please try to make fewer errors.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Do you believe all people are equally Manifestation of God, or some people are more manifesting God than others?

Both. In some aspects, they are equal, in others, they aren't. The Manifestations you know of were just really good at writing religious law. But I believe theology covers every discipline there is, not just religion, and I believe people can manifest God just by doing good works and being a good person. Baha'u'llah had some of the characteristics we know of that made him a great leader for his religion, but in some ways, in many ways, even you and I manifest God in more unique and creative ways than he did. But he gathered a good following and started a world religion, which in the time of enlightenment and Nietzsche was incredibly difficult. Sometimes, however, it doesn't make sense to compare. Baha'u'llah lived in a different age of humanity than what and who we are now. And I suspect it will continue to change.

 

[Truthseeker]

By the way, you might ask @Truthseeker about his peronal experiences of God since he desires to connect to God and I think he has had some mystical experiences.

I already talked to him about my experiences. I guess you can't see everything.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Both. In some aspects, they are equal, in others, they aren't. The Manifestations you know of were just really good at writing religious law. But I believe theology covers every discipline there is, not just religion, and I believe people can manifest God just by doing good works and being a good person. Baha'u'llah had some of the characteristics we know of that made him a great leader for his religion, but in some ways, in many ways, even you and I manifest God in more unique and creative ways than he did. But he gathered a good following and started a world religion, which in the time of enlightenment and Nietzsche was incredibly difficult. Sometimes, however, it doesn't make sense to compare. Baha'u'llah lived in a different age of humanity than what and who we are now. And I suspect it will continue to change.

This is how Baha'u'llah answers the question I asked:

"From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things, visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise, hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the Morn of eternity, and lo! its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth.
Nay, all else besides these Manifestations live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.”
Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest."
Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

This is how Baha'u'llah answers the question I asked:

"From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things, visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise, hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the Morn of eternity, and lo! its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth.
Nay, all else besides these Manifestations live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.”
Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest."
Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude

Baha'u'llah is putting what he viewed as previous manifestations and himself on a pedestal. Even ordinary people who don't have the rich vernacular he has can be known to do incredible things throughout their lifetimes. Baha'u'llah was exceptionally skilled at what he did and influenced millions of people, but that does not mean ordinary people cannot be extraordinary by their own wright or work.

 

[Trailblazer]

I already talked to him about my experiences. I guess you can't see everything.

No, not with as many posts as I am getting!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Humans are fallible thus they are prone to err. Critical thinkers are human beings.

Irrelevant. If an argument is sound, it doesn't matter what mistakes a person makes elsewhere.

Then why is it that critical thinkers cannot understand such simple logic, but rather insist they are never wrong?

They don't. You still haven't understood that you routinely corrupt ideas between reading and attempting to paraphrase them, and you are doing it again. What critical thinker has told you that he is never wrong? One guy you encountered on another site six years ago? I haven't ever seen it, and you've never seen it from me.

If atheists were logical they would be able to understand that if there is only one God

If you were logical you would be able to understand that no number of gods is more logical than any other number. Atheists understand that there may be no gods at all.

No, I am not claiming that. I do not believe that an ordinary human could have written that.

Nor did I claim that you did. More corruption between reading and reproducing. Doesn't that concern you? Have you no interest in whether you do that?

Why is it decidable without proof?

Proof again. You seem unteachable. I'm going to ignore anything you write that keeps coming back to this. Try again using the actual currency for belief that people use. And I already told you how the matter could be decided. Can I assume that it didn't register and that you don't know what it was?

No I don't think your words are equivalent to my words.

Yet you offered my words as evidence that your interpretation of them was correct, or are you unaware of that?

you are not an atheist, you are an agnostic.

You think I'm not an atheist? Praise the Lord!

 

[Trailblazer]

You and your random fallacy generator. I made an observation of your behavior that contradicted your statement.

My behavior does not contradict what I said because you do not know that what other people believe about God matters to me just from how much I post, since there can be other reasons I post so much.

By definition critical thinkers are skilled to avoid common errors by unskilled people.

Even if that is true, that does not mean they are never wrong.

They don’t claim any such thing. They simply use their skills to point out errors in the posts of others, of which you are included.

Okay then, show me where the self-proclaimed critical thinkers on this forum ever admitted they were wrong.

You don’t like being criticized, and you react by making more errors. You are an error generator. And the more mistakes you get caught making the more mistakes you make.

If you cannot point out any errors I made and provide proof, all you have is a personal opinion that I made errors.
Personal opinions don't count for anything, we all have those.

So what is your gripe with atheists thinking for themselves?

I never griped about that. I think everyone should think for themselves, including atheists.

But atheists do understand why there’s a broad spectrum of believers, and the best answer is by following history and science, not taking any arbitrary religion at face value. Theists have a problem with natural answers. They want their divine truth, but it just lacks evidence for critical thinking.

Following history theists can understand why there’s a broad spectrum of believers. I don't know what science has to do with religious beliefs.

False yet again. I defer to experts who conclude Moses was fictional. Please try to make fewer errors.

I said: "Moses was fictional unless you can prove that Moses did not exist." That is not an error, it is a logical statement.
I know the academics say that there is no proof that Moses existed, but I defer to Baha'u'llah, since I consider Him the expert on which prophets existed.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Baha'u'llah is putting what he viewed as previous manifestations and himself on a pedestal. Even ordinary people who don't have the rich vernacular he has can be known to do incredible things throughout their lifetimes. Baha'u'llah was exceptionally skilled at what he did and influenced millions of people, but that does not mean ordinary people cannot be extraordinary by their own wright or work.

The way I see it, it may be said, the mission of the Messengers of God, is to train a civilized humanity and enable them to accomplish great works.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

The way I see it, it may be said, the mission of the Messengers of God, is to train a civilized humanity and enable them to accomplish great works.

And in that way Lauren Olamina could be viewed as this Messenger too, because she took a broken society and was trying to rebuild it on a different planet, with the goal of near-infinite extropy throughout the Universe. The great works you talk about could be the Universal House of Justice, or the burial site of Baha'u'llah, but none other mission is as important as rebuilding human society on other planets.

 

[Alien826]

What is "bald assertion?"

It's like a Bald Eagle, but with less feathers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Irrelevant. If an argument is sound, it doesn't matter what mistakes a person makes elsewhere.

You have no sound argument, all you have is a personal opinion you believe is sound.

What critical thinker has told you that he is never wrong?

I have never heard you say you are wrong.
I could be wrong, so it you can produce some evidence of you admitting you were wrong I will retract my statement.

If you were logical you would be able to understand that no number of gods is more logical than any other number. Atheists understand that there may be no gods at all.

I do understand that and I have even posted it many times myself. It is just as logical that God doesn't exist as it is logical that God exists, since there is no proof that God exists or that God does not exist.

You asked: Are you claiming that an ordinary human could have written the message? I answered: No, I am not claiming that. I do not believe that an ordinary human could have written that. Then you said: Nor did I claim that you did. More corruption between reading and reproducing. Doesn't that concern you? Have you no interest in whether you do that?

You just demonstrated that you are not paying attention but instead you immediately got defensive.

Now pay attention. I never said that you claimed that I believed that an ordinary human could have written the message
You asked me if I did, and I answered you. There was no corruption between reading and reproducing, not by me.

More corruption between reading and reproducing.
Doesn't that concern you? Have you no interest in whether you do that?

Proof again. You seem unteachable. I'm going to ignore anything you write that keeps coming back to this. Try again using the actual currency for belief that people use. And I already told you how the matter could be decided. Can I assume that it didn't register and that you don't know what it was?

More deflection.. You get the door prize for deflection. Why can't you just answer my simple question?

Why is it decidable without proof?

Sorry, but it has not ben decided that an ordinary person could have written that message, not unless you can prove that Baha'u'llah was only an ordinary person. If you cannot prove that Baha'u'llah was only an ordinary person then that is only your personal opinion.

Yet you offered my words as evidence that your interpretation of them was correct, or are you unaware of that?

I said: "No I don't think your words are equivalent to my words."
I did not mean that my words have more value than yours or that your words have more value than my words.

Did you think I meant that your words are not equivalent to my words since your words have more value than my words?
If you think that think again.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's like a Bald Eagle, but with less feathers.

So glad you showed up. I am always happy to see you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And in that way Lauren Olamina could be viewed as this Messenger too, because she took a broken society and was trying to rebuild it on a different planet, with the goal of near-infinite extropy throughout the Universe. The great works you talk about could be the Universal House of Justice, or the burial site of Baha'u'llah, but none other mission is as important as rebuilding human society on other planets.

Right, but even going to other planets and live there, needs a very advanced Science and technology.
To have such an advanced science and technology, humanity needs to be able to work together in a more intelligent, united, and peaceful manner. And that requires training a more spiritual and civilized human who can work together and make such advancement. The way I see it, currently we are even in danger of an atomic war, that may happen in the coming years or centuries that even destroys the humanity, let alone for such advancements to go to other planets. I think, currently, the humanity has too many spiritual diseases. First we need a cure for this disunity very urgently. That is the job of Manifestations of God, I believe.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Right, but even going to other planets and live there, needs a very advanced Science and technology.
To have such an advanced science and technology, humanity needs to be able to work together in a more intelligent, united, and peaceful manner. And that requires training a more spiritual and civilized human who can work together and make such advancement. The way I see it, currently we are even in danger of an atomic war, that may happen in the coming years or centuries that even destroys the humanity, let alone for such advancements to go to other planets. I think, currently, the humanity has too many spiritual diseases. First we need a cure for this disunity very urgently. That is the job of Manifestations of God, I believe.

I agree 100% and because I believe this I also believe that Baha'u'llah was in affect creating God by the majesty of his tablets.

 

[F1fan]

The way I see it, it may be said, the mission of the Messengers of God, is to train a civilized humanity and enable them to accomplish great works.

Train them how? What great works?

Do you think Beethoven's great works were a result of being influenced by messengers?

 

[CG Didymus]

Train them how? What great works?

Do you think Beethoven's great works were a result of being influenced by messengers?

How many great works of art and music were inspired by the Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ? Oh, wait a minute. Baha'is say the Trinity isn't true? Never mind.