Who was the most influential person to walk the earth?

[Tumah]

The Talmud is a sacred text.

Not propaganda. I'm stating factually what it says. Just because you don't know something doesn't make it propaganda.

It's the Talmud, it IS IN THERE.

So why the hell would I in a million years feel that way. It makes no sense. You never do though

What you are saying is false.

Everything I said was in it I HAVE READ.

Not everything that you've read, you've understood. The Talmud isn't like the Torah or the Quran or pretty much any other sacred text. Its not a codification of laws and generally doesn't even provide a clear statement as to what the practical Law actually is. In fact, there are number of times when the Talmud actually states "and the Law is as X" when in fact that isn't the actual Law because we don't hold like position of the Rabbi who put the Talmud together. Without an understanding of the principles that the Talmud uses to express itself, you're not going to get a very good understanding of it. Its not a clear text and its not meant to be clear. Which is why there are just so many commentaries on the Talmud. Maybe hundreds even. Its also why we spend many years studying it page by page instead of just memorizing the text.

So now, lets discuss what you learned from the antisemitic website Come and Hear (page 3), that you already know I don't know about. Since you've brought up sacrificing to Moloch, we can start with that.

The Mishnah in Sanhedrin 64a discusses the specific actions that one has to perform in order to transgress the Biblical prohibition of sacrificing one's child to Molech.

Someone who gives from his seed to Moleh is not required [to be punished for transgressing the Biblical commandment] until he [actively] gives over to Molech and passes [the child] through fire. If he [actively] gave over but did not pass [the child] through fire, [or] if he passed [the child] through fire but didn't [actively] give over, he is not required [to be punished for transgressing the Biblical commandment].​

This is a common theme in the Talmud. When discussing a Biblical prohibitions, it clarifies the specific actions or circumstances that need to occur in order for one to transgress. If its something that has a wide range of applicability on the other hand, the Talmud will usually just discuss the most extreme cases and ignore the normal ones since its possible to figure out the general rule from the extremes. But that's not relevant here since the Talmud is explaining that in order to transgress the prohibition of passing one's seed to Molech, you have to fulfill specific conditions.

What is relevant, is that the Talmud isn't discussing general idolatry here (under which this is a sub-category). That was already discussed in a number of other places. There's even a tractate for idolatry called "Avodah Zara (lit. strange worship - idolatry)". Its also not saying that one wouldn't be transgressing the general prohibition of idolatry. That's a different prohibition that one would also be transgressing at the same time, whether one fulfilled the two conditions of sacrificing to Molech or not.

The Talmud in tractate Avodah Zara also makes clear that even if you don't perform idolatry the way that its meant to be performed (ie. if the way the idol is meant to be served is by putting apples in front of it and you sing to it), you'd still be transgressing the prohibition of idolatry. So even if you only fulfill one of the two conditions discussed here, you'd still be liable for the prohibition of idolatry - just not for the prohibition of passing one's seed to Molech.

Also, I should point out that nowhere is it stated that the child must be an infant as you claimed.

So now, if you will, where are the "instructions for infant sacrifice to Moloch"?

Because I know you haven't read anything biased or misleading to promote a point of view.

 

[Tumah]

And the oral circumcision is common knowledge. It's Jewish LAW.

Nope. There are many, especially in the Modern Orthodox community that use a little pipe rather rather than their mouths, because of a fear of herpes. Its acceptable that way too, although ultra-Orthodox say its preferable not to use it.

Preferable of course being far from "It's Jewish LAW". If using a pipe wasn't acceptable, they'd all have to be circumcised again and of course, no one says that.

Brit milah - Wikipedia

 

[Tumah]

What you are saying is false.

Everything I said was in it I HAVE READ.

And if its on the internet it must be true? You just spend an entire thread arguing with @Kirran that he believes anti Islamic propaganda and then you turn around and believe everything it says on antisemitic websites...

Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement.
-Talmud Gittin 57a​

And here you can read about the part of circumcision that requires the mouth.


So now YOU HAVE READ that everything I have said is true.

 

[SethZaddik]

His story sounds legendary, Julius Caesar is said to have said to have killed 1 million people and enslaved another million, was such a powerful military leader he was asked to step down and return to Rome by the Senate only to be given the role of "Caesar for life."

He made the biggest contribution to the biggest Empire of Antiquity by building Rome into a city of over a million people with magnificent structures and a great civilization.

So much so he was deified by law.

It caused some trouble in Judea as he was to be worshipped before all gods or at least in addition to, paid lip service to and there was a cult of Caesar.

He was betrayed and/or killed by a Brutus if I remember correctly.

But he is a definite candidate. I am watching History Channel's ten greatest dictators.

Ramses was actually pretty much the greatest ruler, wealthiest too I think, in history. Not very influential today.

 

[sayak83]

Who do you think was the most influential person in History? I'm guessing Jesus...and He was born in a barn

Isaac Newton

The forging of mathematical equations with the physical world of phenomena was his unique contribution that cannot be overstated.

 

[Tenzin Javid]

I am a Buddhist. I do not believe Jesus was the son of God, only a prophet of peace but I would cite Jesus as being very influential, as we time our life by him. Our calendar is set by him, our time is set by him. It is 2017 because of Jesus's assumed birth date. But Buddha was the absolute most influential, as he guides my life.

 

[Indian Iconoclast]

Mahatma Mohan Das Karam Chand Gandhi, the apostle of non-violence.

 

[Wirey]

Johannes Gutenberg. Ideas got to spread.

Johannes Gutenberg - Wikipedia

 

[SethZaddik]

Nope. There are many, especially in the Modern Orthodox community that use a little pipe rather rather than their mouths, because of a fear of herpes. Its acceptable that way too, although ultra-Orthodox say its preferable not to use it.

Preferable of course being far from "It's Jewish LAW". If using a pipe wasn't acceptable, they'd all have to be circumcised again and of course, no one says that.

Brit milah - Wikipedia

If you want to be gullible it is not my concern.

Everything I said was in the Talmud is in the Talmud.

It says Jeshu is "Boiling in hot excrement in hell."

It tells the story of Jeshu, a known derogatory term for Jesus(pbuh) likewise used by the Mandaeans, ben Pandira, illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named ben Stada.

Learned Egyptian sorcery, etc.

And Rabbis do perform circumcision with their mouth.

The propaganda in this instance is the saying that it is propaganda.

If you didn't know already people lie, Talmudists believe the Talmud when it says a goy can be lied to with no penalty because the goy is not human. Stolen from, killed.

You need to stop desperately running around trying to correct people who are not even incorrect, your lack of knowledge is not equal to its non existence (knowledge).

 

[SethZaddik]

And if its on the internet it must be true? You just spend an entire thread arguing with @Kirran that he believes anti Islamic propaganda and then you turn around and believe everything it says on antisemitic websites...

Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement.
-Talmud Gittin 57a​

And here you can read about the part of circumcision that requires the mouth.


So now YOU HAVE READ that everything I have said is true.

Is there a fake Talmud conspiracy I didn't know about where the whole 36 volumes that are available to read online are not actually the Talmud?

No. You are being ridiculous.

Volumes of scholarly analysis as early as Eusebius mention or are dedicated to the topic. It is not a conspiracy to inject false passages in the Talmud that led to it being confiscated and destroyed by the Church for blaspheming Christ and Mary.

Nevertheless it survived in tact because in Baghdad and throughout the Islamic world that protected the Jews from persecution unlike Europe, it was not an issue what Rabbis wrote, not a threat.

I await your response disputing this fact too. But it is true, Muslims were always civil with Jews and Christians generally speaking, and they lived harmoniously for a thousand years.

 

[SethZaddik]

Nope. There are many, especially in the Modern Orthodox community that use a little pipe rather rather than their mouths,

But most use their mouths so what is "nope" supposed to apply to. Did the exception become the rule?

because of a fear of herpes. Its acceptable that way too, although ultra-Orthodox say its preferable not to use it.

Where do so many babies and Rabbis get this herpes? The wife/mother?

Must be of epidemic proportions.

Preferable of course being far from "It's Jewish LAW". If using a pipe wasn't acceptable, they'd all have to be circumcised again and of course, no one says that.

Brit milah - Wikipedia

Yeah, like I am going to not notice you go from total denial out of unawareness to now knowing but still trying to deny something? By minimizing it you prove it is true, but you just try and rationalize it down as if only a minority does it.

That is not the case. If they only stopped because of herpes, this minority that did, something disturbing is going on for sure.

Who are you?

 

[Tumah]

But most use their mouths so what is "nope" supposed to apply to. Did the exception become the rule?

From what I've read, most Modern Orthodox actually don't use their mouths, but either way it doesn't matter because using the mouth isn't a requirement its just a custom.

Where do so many babies and Rabbis get this herpes? The wife/mother?

So many?

Must be of epidemic proportions.

No, it hasn't been so many.

Yeah, like I am going to not notice you go from total denial out of unawareness to now knowing but still trying to deny something? By minimizing it you prove it is true, but you just try and rationalize it down as if only a minority does it.

I have not denied that the custom is to use the mouth during the circumcision process. I had it, my son had it and G-d willing, my future children will have that as well. I've so far only explained that its not a part of the circumcision, but something done after the circumcision, its not a requirement and that there are many that don't do it.

That is not the case. If they only stopped because of herpes, this minority that did, something disturbing is going on for sure.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

Who are you?

@Tumah

 

[Tumah]

Is there a fake Talmud conspiracy I didn't know about where the whole 36 volumes that are available to read online are not actually the Talmud?

No. You are being ridiculous.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Volumes of scholarly analysis as early as Eusebius mention or are dedicated to the topic. It is not a conspiracy to inject false passages in the Talmud that led to it being confiscated and destroyed by the Church for blaspheming Christ and Mary.

Which topic is that?

Nevertheless it survived in tact because in Baghdad and throughout the Islamic world that protected the Jews from persecution unlike Europe, it was not an issue what Rabbis wrote, not a threat.

I await your response disputing this fact too. But it is true, Muslims were always civil with Jews and Christians generally speaking, and they lived harmoniously for a thousand years.

I believe we've had that discussion already and the result was that I proved to you that although relations between Jews and Muslims was significantly better than it was between Jews and Christians, it was still no bed of roses by a long shot.

 

[Tumah]

If you want to be gullible it is not my concern.

How do you think I'm being gullible.

Everything I said was in the Talmud is in the Talmud.

Not everything. Only some things. Other things were just assertions that seem to be based on statements made by antisemitic websites.

It says Jeshu is "Boiling in hot excrement in hell."

Yes.

It tells the story of Jeshu, a known derogatory term for Jesus(pbuh) likewise used by the Mandaeans, ben Pandira, illegitimate son of a Roman soldier named ben Stada.

Yes it does say that, although its not clear that "Yeshu" was meant to be a derogatory term as much as a nickname for Yeshua. If you actually deconstruct the Greek Iesous, its likely that it was based on the name Yeshu. The 's' at the end of the name was commonly added to Greek names (meaning it wasn't there in the Aramaic). And there is no /sh/ sound in Greek. So Iesous likely comes from Ieshou = Yeshu.

Learned Egyptian sorcery, etc.

Right.

And Rabbis do perform circumcision with their mouth.

No, they use a very sharp knife. To me it looks like the same type of knife that doctors use in surgeries. First they put in a shield. Then they make the blesssing and cut off the foreskin with the knife. Then they peel back the epithelium with their thumb nails. You can often spot a mohel (the one who performs the circumcision) because his thumb nails are slightly longer and cut to a point in the middle to aid in the peeling back. After that's done, the mohel sucks out some blood and spits it into a basin either with his mouth or with a little pipe.

Source: I have a son who had it done.

The propaganda in this instance is the saying that it is propaganda.

I'm pretty sure the propoganda in this case is you culling your information from antisemitic websites. But please go ahead and prove me wrong. Let's get some sources.

If you didn't know already people lie, Talmudists believe the Talmud when it says a goy can be lied to with no penalty because the goy is not human. Stolen from, killed.

There is no penalty from lying to anyone, not just a non-Jew. Lying is a "negative commandment that has no action" and all prohibitions that fall into that category don't have penalties unless explicitly stated.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew isn't human.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew can be stolen from or killed. Even an animal can't be killed at will, never mind a person.

But please feel free to quote sources instead of just making assertions. You know, to prove that you're not quoting from propaganda.

You need to stop desperately running around trying to correct people who are not even incorrect, your lack of knowledge is not equal to its non existence (knowledge).

The thing is, my knowledge about Judaism exceeds yours. I've been studying the Talmud almost daily for maybe 20 years now. I feel somewhat qualified to be able to make some statements about what the Talmud does and doesn't say and about what you have and haven't correctly understood.

 

[SethZaddik]

How do you think I'm being gullible.


Not everything. Only some things. Other things were just assertions that seem to be based on statements made by antisemitic websites.


Yes.


Yes it does say that, although its not clear that "Yeshu" was meant to be a derogatory term as much as a nickname for Yeshua. If you actually deconstruct the Greek Iesous, its likely that it was based on the name Yeshu. The 's' at the end of the name was commonly added to Greek names (meaning it wasn't there in the Aramaic). And there is no /sh/ sound in Greek. So Iesous likely comes from Ieshou = Yeshu.


Right.


No, they use a very sharp knife. To me it looks like the same type of knife that doctors use in surgeries. First they put in a shield. Then they make the blesssing and cut off the foreskin with the knife. Then they peel back the epithelium with their thumb nails. You can often spot a mohel (the one who performs the circumcision) because his thumb nails are slightly longer and cut to a point in the middle to aid in the peeling back. After that's done, the mohel sucks out some blood and spits it into a basin either with his mouth or with a little pipe.

Source: I have a son who had it done.


I'm pretty sure the propoganda in this case is you culling your information from antisemitic websites. But please go ahead and prove me wrong. Let's get some sources.


There is no penalty from lying to anyone, not just a non-Jew. Lying is a "negative commandment that has no action" and all prohibitions that fall into that category don't have penalties unless explicitly stated.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew isn't human.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew can be stolen from or killed. Even an animal can't be killed at will, never mind a person.

But please feel free to quote sources instead of just making assertions. You know, to prove that you're not quoting from propaganda.


The thing is, my knowledge about Judaism exceeds yours. I've been studying the Talmud almost daily for maybe 20 years now. I feel somewhat qualified to be able to make some statements about what the Talmud does and doesn't say and about what you have and haven't correctly understood.

How do you think I'm being gullible.


Not everything. Only some things. Other things were just assertions that seem to be based on statements made by antisemitic websites.


Yes.


Yes it does say that, although its not clear that "Yeshu" was meant to be a derogatory term as much as a nickname for Yeshua. If you actually deconstruct the Greek Iesous, its likely that it was based on the name Yeshu. The 's' at the end of the name was commonly added to Greek names (meaning it wasn't there in the Aramaic). And there is no /sh/ sound in Greek. So Iesous likely comes from Ieshou = Yeshu.


Right.


No, they use a very sharp knife. To me it looks like the same type of knife that doctors use in surgeries. First they put in a shield. Then they make the blesssing and cut off the foreskin with the knife. Then they peel back the epithelium with their thumb nails. You can often spot a mohel (the one who performs the circumcision) because his thumb nails are slightly longer and cut to a point in the middle to aid in the peeling back. After that's done, the mohel sucks out some blood and spits it into a basin either with his mouth or with a little pipe.

Source: I have a son who had it done.


I'm pretty sure the propoganda in this case is you culling your information from antisemitic websites. But please go ahead and prove me wrong. Let's get some sources.


There is no penalty from lying to anyone, not just a non-Jew. Lying is a "negative commandment that has no action" and all prohibitions that fall into that category don't have penalties unless explicitly stated.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew isn't human.
No where in the Talmud does it say that a non-Jew can be stolen from or killed. Even an animal can't be killed at will, never mind a person.

But please feel free to quote sources instead of just making assertions. You know, to prove that you're not quoting from propaganda.


The thing is, my knowledge about Judaism exceeds yours. I've been studying the Talmud almost daily for maybe 20 years now. I feel somewhat qualified to be able to make some statements about what the Talmud does and doesn't say and about what you have and haven't correctly understood.

Yeah, I am sure it me who doesn't understand and not just you deflecting from your errors.

You are the person who is incapable of being wrong even when it's obvious. Learn to not speak on things you only think you know if you don't want to be rebuked for error.

Blah, blah, blah...Is the substance of your comment. Blah, blah, blah...You are wrong.

But I never was and actually am capable if and whenever I am. You think you know more than you do, I have experienced this before with you and I could argue with you until you can't say anything anymore or just ignore you.

I'll let you guess what I will do.

 

[SethZaddik]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Or what you yourself are.

I didn't expect you to. Even though it was a response to you you can't remember.

Which topic is that?

The one you thought was just propaganda.

I believe we've had that discussion already and the result was that I proved to you that although relations between Jews and Muslims was significantly better than it was between Jews and Christians, it was still no bed of roses by a long shot.

I believe you are entirely obsessed with finding anything to correct me on because you have tried about 50 times and failed every time.

Get a hobby.

 

[Tumah]

I'll let you guess what I will do.

Sure:

1. Deflect
2. Make more assertions without any evidence
3. Attack my character rather than my disprove my disproofs.
4. Ramble.

How am I doing? Good guesses, no?

 

[SethZaddik]

Sure:

1. Deflect
2. Make more assertions without any evidence
3. Attack my character rather than my disprove my disproofs.
4. Ramble.

How am I doing? Good guesses, no?

M

Sure:

1. Deflect
2. Make more assertions without any evidence
3. Attack my character rather than my disprove my disproofs.
4. Ramble.

How am I doing? Good guesses, no?

Angry. I can tell that.

Because I just said you deflect now you are saying I do and upping the stakes by adding fibs.

Obsessed too.

I said nothing of your character you didn't say yourself. Inadvertently or otherwise.

Cute, not accurate.

 

[SethZaddik]

Sure:

1. Deflect
2. Make more assertions without any evidence
3. Attack my character rather than my disprove my disproofs.
4. Ramble.

How am I doing? Good guesses, no?

You ramble like no tomorrow exists because you think many words makes you look knowledgeable.

You get pissed whenever I scrutinize your comments because I highlight your lack of knowledge.

So stop. I didn't ask you to Harass me. I am not the one who is incapable of admitting they were wrong. That's you.

And you are deflecting by saying that I deflect.

My messages always have information. Facts. I am careful.

And for some reason it pisses you off when you don't know something said.

You equate that with it not being true.

Don't be surprised when you find out otherwise and take it out on me.

 

[Tumah]

M


Angry. I can tell that.

Not a good judge of character, I see.

Because I just said you deflect now you are saying I do and upping the stakes by adding fibs.

No, I'm saying you are deflecting because while I've responded directly to your posts on a point by point basis and when relevant, provided sources and disproofs of your claims, you've only made some general comments about me.

Obsessed too.

Because I keep responding to your replies to me?

I said nothing of your character you didn't say yourself. Inadvertently or otherwise.

So far tonight you've called me: bitter, obsessed, immature and the type of person that wants to be wise, learned, etc,

So...

Cute, not accurate.

Accurate?