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Who won the War of 1812?

Who won the War of 1812?

  • The Americans

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • The Canadians & British

    Votes: 8 57.1%

  • Total voters
    14

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I could say the same to you.
Except that you thought the Brits only searched our ships for British deserters.
There was also enslavement of Americastanian sailors (impressment).
The British burning of Washington was a reprisal for the American burning of York, and there were quite a few incidents in the leadup to the war where American ships fired on British ships.
Mere skirmishes.
Each side suffered losses, but this fact alone doesn't preclude a win.
Moreover, we didn't invade Great Britain, but they invaded us.
Their invasion having failed, we won.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
On what grounds? The Americans invaded and then were pushed back. Meanwhile, the war against Napoleon ended, which was the driving force behind the end of impressment & recapturing deserters: fewer demands on the Royal Navy meant less demand for sailors.

The basic status quo was maintained. No one really gained anything, but no one really lost anything. The British were pushed back, too. So, neither side was able to invade the other or achieve any clear advantage. A tie.

"Freedom of the seas..." as in the US wanted through the British blockade of France, who it was at war with?

That was part of it. The US considered itself neutral in that war and did not want to get entangled in European affairs. All we wanted was open commerce with Europe, which was necessary for our own economy in those early days.

The "forays into Canada" were the main purpose of the war, IMO.

Not the main purpose. It may have been seen as an opportunity, a fringe benefit as a result of the war, but it was not the cause of the war, in and of itself.

Fundamentally, the war was about invading Canada. There's probably some argument to be had about whether the invasion was more about manifest destiny or more about removing a British foothold right next to the US for security - and both motives were probably at play among the policy-makers - but ultimately, it was about an American invasion of Canada. While the Americans captured and occupied Canadian territory at times, eventually they were pushed out and then some.

I would say it was more about establishing American primacy over the continent. I think the US was perfectly content to leave Canada alone once it realized that Britain no longer threatened us. Annexation of Canada was not really necessary to achieve America's primary goals of expansionism in the West and South.

And since it happened after the end of the war, it's not really a factor in the question of who won the war.

Technically not, but it wasn't so much a matter of "winning" as much as flexing our muscle. I would suggest that if the US had been soundly defeated in the War of 1812, its position on the continent would have been much weaker and ineffective at further territorial expansion. The fact that we held our own against a major military power commanded respect from other nations which would help us later on.

That's really the only main significance of the War of 1812. It wasn't really all that important who "won," as much as it was to make a demonstration of US military power.

The British left American ships alone because the war with France ended. The Royal Navy no longer needed the sailors to man the blockade and the blockade wasn't there to intercept shipping bound for France.

Well, yeah. That too. I think the Royal Navy was in the process of being reformed as well. From what I've been able to gather, life in the Royal Navy back in those years was a living hell. Floggings, keelhauling, and other nasty barbaric punishments. Rotten food, scurvy, doctors sawing off limbs while the ship is sinking. I certainly wouldn't want to be forcibly impressed into the RN.

That's not entirely true. A few decades later in the Fenian Raids, terrorists operating from bases in the US launched a series of attacks across the border on targets in Canada. It's tricky to prove, but the general feeling is that this was done with the tacit approval of American authorities: a lot of government officials had to look the other way for the raids to have happened.

Fenian raids - Wikipedia

It's speculation, but even if true, there were those on the US side who may have felt justified due to their belief that Canadians had assisted the Confederates. By that time, the Union Army was the largest army in the world, and if they really wanted to invade Canada, it probably would have led to a much different result than in the War of 1812.

Well, there was that and abolition. Most of the British possessions in the Americas, particularly the Carribbean, were slavery-based economies. After slavery was abolished across the British empire in 1833, the Carribbean became less of a cash cow than it had been.

Then in 1872, the Suez Canal opened and trade with Asia became easier than ever.

I think there were lots of economic factors that took British attention away from the US. I don't actually see a lot of fear of tangling with the US from them.

Fear? No. But I think they clearly saw the impracticality of seeking war with America. Even with the defeat of Napoleon, things were still not entirely stable on the European continent, plus they were competing with other European powers and scrambling for hegemony elsewhere in the world. So, they were pretty busy in other areas of the world.

I think there may have been some fear later on, as various radical ideologies were cropping up in Europe, along with a rise in nationalism which threatened the balance of power. Germany trounced France in 1871, and there was a feeling that the Germans would just want more and more. There were also concerns about Russian expansion into Central Asia and the Far East, so the British saw that they needed to try to get America on side.

I don't think they had any fear of the US, at least not at that early stage, but they were thinking in more practical terms.
 
"Messing with" meaning attacking.

Many such skirmishes happened in the past without declarations of war, America chose to escalate the situation by formally declaring war.

But we won because the British invasion failed.

Had America not declared war, then there would have been no invasions. Britain wasn't after a war with America, it had much bigger fish to fry.

If someone declared war on you in order to conquer your country, then repelling an invasion could be considered victory. If you start a war, then get invaded as a tactic towards a larger strategic objective, then they are only battles won, not the war won. Captured territory was to be a bargaining chip.

If a country begins a war, its success or failure should be judged on their aims when they started it.

The Brits were getting their noses bloodied, & couldn't maintain their blockade.

They had complete dominance of the seas and could have bankrupted America had they so desired, albeit at great cost to themselves. There was simply no reason to maintain the blockade after the defat of Napoleon (although, as it happened, that turned out to be temporary). Why spend enormous resources on a minor theatre of a war you thought you had already won when it no longer serves any real purpose?

It might be hard for Americans to see themselves as an insignificant footnote to a much more important issue, but thats just what it was.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Too bad.
My suggestions were much better movies.
I agree! The only reason that came to mind is because I saw it pop up on my "recommendations" for movies. I went with another selection.
 
I agree! The only reason that came to mind is because I saw it pop up on my "recommendations" for movies. I went with another selection.

There's a Mel Gibson movie that's an exact copy of Braveheart but set in some American independence context. He has a little lead soldier that belonged to his son and melts it down to make a bullet with which to shoot the bad guy at the end.

It is the worst film ever made. If it pops up in your recommendations then burn your computer in case it starts playing by accident.

It's probably called something vapid like 'patriot'.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
There's a Mel Gibson movie that's an exact copy of Braveheart but set in some American independence context. He has a little lead soldier that belonged to his son and melts it down to make a bullet with which to shoot the bad guy at the end.

It is the worst film ever made. If it pops up in your recommendations then burn your computer in case it starts playing by accident.

It's probably called something vapid like 'patriot'.
Lmao....seriously great post. I would argue that there are worse movies made, but that movie was bad.
 
I would argue that there are worse movies made, but that movie was bad.

You could argue it, but you'd be objectively wrong.

Fair enough there's probably movies that are worse for much of their running time, but none of them feature Mel Gibson shooting a foppish bad guy with a melted down toy soldier that used to belong to his dead son.

That is still the lowest point in human history.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
There's a Mel Gibson movie that's an exact copy of Braveheart but set in some American independence context. He has a little lead soldier that belonged to his son and melts it down to make a bullet with which to shoot the bad guy at the end.

It is the worst film ever made. If it pops up in your recommendations then burn your computer in case it starts playing by accident.

It's probably called something vapid like 'patriot'.
I could feel him holding back on yelling "FREEEEEEEDOMMMMM". Both films are good for senseless action/battle scenes but that is where it stops. As a historian, both films give me nightmares.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Many such skirmishes happened in the past without declarations of war, America chose to escalate the situation by formally declaring war.



Had America not declared war, then there would have been no invasions. Britain wasn't after a war with America, it had much bigger fish to fry.

If someone declared war on you in order to conquer your country, then repelling an invasion could be considered victory. If you start a war, then get invaded as a tactic towards a larger strategic objective, then they are only battles won, not the war won. Captured territory was to be a bargaining chip.

If a country begins a war, its success or failure should be judged on their aims when they started it.



They had complete dominance of the seas and could have bankrupted America had they so desired, albeit at great cost to themselves. There was simply no reason to maintain the blockade after the defat of Napoleon (although, as it happened, that turned out to be temporary). Why spend enormous resources on a minor theatre of a war you thought you had already won when it no longer serves any real purpose?

It might be hard for Americans to see themselves as an insignificant footnote to a much more important issue, but thats just what it was.
England was already waging war by proxy before the declaration.
 
England was already waging war by proxy before the declaration.

They were assisting Native Americans who objected to America's manifest destiny to steal their land and kill their children. Obviously not out of concern for their wellbeing, but it's a bit rich to play the victim just because someone gave weapons to the victims of your murderous land grab (not that the Brits were too averse to murderous land-grabbing either).

Anyway, it's common statecraft to help the enemies of your enemies and it rarely leads to formal war. It has been a core of US, UK, Russian, French, etc. foreign policy for centuries.

Still doesn't change the fact that America started the formal war, which was avoidable. You can make a reasonable argument that they had a fair case for doing so, but they still started it and then failed in their aims.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They were assisting Native Americans who objected to America's manifest destiny to steal their land and kill their children. Obviously not out of concern for their wellbeing, but it's a bit rich to play the victim just because someone gave weapons to the victims of your murderous land grab (not that the Brits were too averse to murderous land-grabbing either).

Anyway, it's common statecraft to help the enemies of your enemies and it rarely leads to formal war. It has been a core of US, UK, Russian, French, etc. foreign policy for centuries.

Still doesn't change the fact that America started the formal war, which was avoidable. You can make a reasonable argument that they had a fair case for doing so, but they still started it and then failed in their aims.
Americastan didn't start the war against Britain, since the latter was
already waging a covert war (or war by proxy) against the former.
As for the war against Indians...yes, America started that one, &
emerged victorious. Not saying it was ethical, but we won decisively.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a Mel Gibson movie that's an exact copy of Braveheart but set in some American independence context. He has a little lead soldier that belonged to his son and melts it down to make a bullet with which to shoot the bad guy at the end.

It is the worst film ever made. If it pops up in your recommendations then burn your computer in case it starts playing by accident.

It's probably called something vapid like 'patriot'.

I've seen that movie. It had its moments, but there were some inaccuracies. He actually made several bullets, as there was a whole set of those soldiers his son had. His son was murdered by an evil British officer. British viewers of the film complained that the British were portrayed inaccurately and unfavorably. (Some noted that the director was German-born and may have been biased against Britain.) But it was really just that one British officer who was portrayed badly, while the other British were portrayed more neutrally. The character was based on Col. Banastre Tarleton.

Mel Gibson's character was viewed as somewhat whitewashed, since the historical figure upon whom his character was based (Francis Marion) was a pretty nasty, sadistic individual.

I didn't think it was such a bad film. It was flawed and not the greatest, but surely it can't be the "worst film ever made."
 
Americastan didn't start the war against Britain, since the latter was
already waging a covert war (or war by proxy) against the former.

Providing weapons and cultivating good relations with a grouping persecuted by country A does not mean you are at war with country A.

The war began with the declaration of war by the Americans.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Providing weapons and cultivating good relations with a grouping persecuted by country A does not mean you are at war with country A.
The war began with the declaration of war by the Americans.
At this point, we're just going in circles around some different assumptions.
Agreeing to disagree is appropriate.
(I only took those positions for fun anyway. All views are defendable.)
 
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