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Who would you support to be President of the United States: Donald Trump or Hilary Clinton?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wait, what? People actually care what the current Italian Prime Minister thinks?
I would suggest anyone who care what our allies might think should care, especially since if you follow such matters, this is the overall European consensus. Let's take a look at some of what she did as SoS:

Got our allies and China & Russia to support a boycott against Iran that got the latter to the negotiating table, which many experts didn't think could be done.

Involved in seeking and the killing of bin-Laden.

Worked out an agreement with China that increased our exports to them by roughly 50%.

Worked with medical teams to help provide more and safer medications to 3rd world countries, especially for children.

Spoke in terms of better and more equal treatment for women, especially with her speech in China.

Spoke in terms of less discrimination against the LGBT communities worldwide.

Helped expand medical healthcare and family leave for our vets.

Helped negotiate a cease fire between Israel and Hamas.

Reversed our loss of prestige internationally because of the Bush errors.


Now, obviously there's a lot more that a SoS does, plus one always works in conjunction with the pres and others.

Now, it's your turn: what has she done or failed to do that makes her such a disaster, iyo? After that, since Trump appears to be the only viable alternative, what does he present that makes you think he'd do better?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
... certainly cause for concern.

... I'm am absolutely sure that you know how simplistic that is.

The Haaretz March 09 opinion piece by Alexander Griffing titled On Foreign Policy, Hillary Clinton Is the Only Republican Left Standing, Griffing writes:

Hillary Clinton is by far the best known commodity on either side of the U.S. presidential primaries, and that’s both her greatest asset and her biggest liability. She’s also a liberal interventionist of the old school — the only candidate in the field to have advanced the decapitation of a dictator — and that foreign policy philosophy means she stands alone in the field of candidates for the U.S. presidency, even though Republican presidents are its better-known latter-day flag-wavers.
Clinton on the Democrat's ‘far right’

Indeed, liberal interventionism isn’t so popular on the left. When Hawaii Democrat Tulsi Gabbard, an Iraq war veteran and rising star in the party, recently resigned her leadership role in the Democrat National Committee (whose leadership must stay neutral in the primary) to endorse Bernie Sanders, that endorsement focused solely on foreign policy — rejecting Clinton’s platform. The only mention of the Middle East in the debate between Sanders and Clinton before Sanders’ surprise upset in the Michigan primary this week was Sanders slamming spending on the Iraq war, trillions he deemed could have gone to rebuilding infrastructure in places like Flint and to education in ‘collapsing’ public school systems like in Detroit.

Gabbard’s endorsement and resignation is the manifestation of a much-discussed dynamic in this election so far — that Hillary Clinton is far to the right of her party, especially the base, on foreign policy. Gabbard said that, “As a veteran of two Middle East deployments, I know firsthand the cost of war...We need a commander in chief who will not waste precious lives and money on interventionist wars of regime change.” She didn’t mention Clinton by name but alluded to her voting in favor of Bush’s invasion of Iraq and her interventionist leanings in Libya and Syria.

Of the five major candidates left in the race, only Clinton clings to the decades-old foreign policy dynamic that has pervaded Washington since WWII — classic liberal interventionism. Clinton’s worldview, bolstered by hundreds of foreign policy advisors, asserts that the United States must “lead” the world to maintain liberal values internationally.

Clinton’s globocop approach is more easily associated today with Republicans, since George H.W. Bush co-opted it from the Democrats in his "New World Order" speech before the first Iraq war. On September 11, 1991, speaking before the U.S. Congress, Bush said, “The cost of closing our eyes to aggression is beyond mankind's power to imagine. This we do know: Our cause is just; our cause is moral; our cause is right.” Speaking at the end of last year before the Council on Foreign Relations, Clinton declared “that America must lead a worldwide fight” to defeat ISIS and “radical jihadism,” which “will require a sustained commitment in every pillar of American power.” Indeed, her language familiarly echoes that employed by Bush Jr. in his speech to Congress after 9/11 when he promised to “direct every resource at our command — every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war — to the destruction and to the defeat of the [Al-Qaida] global terror network.”​

The ongoing 'collateral damage' wrought by this "globocop" approach is truly heartbreaking.
I hear ya, but you should remember that I've been more of a Bernie than a Hillary fan. Hillary has never been one of my favorite people. But what's the alternative at this point? Trump? No chance-- I'd be so careless to do that.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I hear ya, but you should remember that I've been more of a Bernie than a Hillary fan. Hillary has never been one of my favorite people. But what's the alternative at this point? Trump? No chance-- I'd be so careless to do that.
I totally agree. At the same time, I sincerely hope that the Bernie movement serves as the progressive counterpart of the Tea Party.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I would suggest anyone who care what our allies might think should care, especially since if you follow such matters, this is the overall European consensus.
Given the uninspired vision of European leaders in the last decade their mild support is hardly something to pop champagne corks over. It's like taking financial tips from a con artist.

Let's take a look at some of what she did as SoS:

Got our allies and China & Russia to support a boycott against Iran that got the latter to the negotiating table, which many experts didn't think could be done.

Involved in seeking and the killing of bin-Laden.

Worked out an agreement with China that increased our exports to them by roughly 50%.

Worked with medical teams to help provide more and safer medications to 3rd world countries, especially for children.

Spoke in terms of better and more equal treatment for women, especially with her speech in China.

Spoke in terms of less discrimination against the LGBT communities worldwide.

Helped expand medical healthcare and family leave for our vets.

Helped negotiate a cease fire between Israel and Hamas.

Reversed our loss of prestige internationally because of the Bush errors.
I'm surprised you felt a need to even mention a few things on this short list as the long term positive effects of several of them is highly questionable.

Now, it's your turn: what has she done or failed to do that makes her such a disaster, iyo? After that, since Trump appears to be the only viable alternative, what does he present that makes you think he'd do better?
I'm not a Trump supporter so I'll pass on that point. I'll just say that I doubt very much he could be worse. I'm not sure I want to get into a litany of reasons why I feel she is unsuited and unqualified to be POTUS. I'll have to give that some thought. It will depend how bored I am this afternoon.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Given the uninspired vision of European leaders in the last decade their mild support is hardly something to pop champagne corks over. It's like taking financial tips from a con artist.

I'm surprised you felt a need to even mention a few things on this short list as the long term positive effects of several of them is highly questionable.

I'm not a Trump supporter so I'll pass on that point. I'll just say that I doubt very much he could be worse. I'm not sure I want to get into a litany of reasons why I feel she is unsuited and unqualified to be POTUS. I'll have to give that some thought. It will depend how bored I am this afternoon.
Let me just recommend that you don't waste your time on this, and there's a good chance I might not respond to what you would write anyway. I see this in terms of "What are the alternatives?", and there's simply none that can find. Often voting is choosing between "two evils".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Voting for Hilary is pretty much like voting for a war criminal or warlord to be honest.
I live in the U.S.A., whereas our long legal tradition has it that one is "innocent until proven guilty", although some seem to have forgotten that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I live in the U.S.A., whereas our long legal tradition has it that one is "innocent until proven guilty", although some seem to have forgotten that.
Granted, she hasn't been convicted of being an uber hawk with a record of lusting for war, higher taxes, big government, homophobia, sexism & crony capitalism.
But then....neither has Trump been convicted of any criticisms you'd level against him.
So resorting to innocence by not being convicted is a hollow refuge.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!
What are Clinton's war crimes and how do they compare to Trump's promise to bring back lots more torture and target the families of suspected terrorists? Trump related a (mostly false) story of how early-20th century US troops executed captured insurgents using bullets dipped in pigs' blood. He thought that was "great" and "beautiful" etc. This is the man you want to vote for but Clinton is a "warlord"?
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
What are Clinton's war crimes and how do they compare to Trump's promise to bring back lots more torture and target the families of suspected terrorists? Trump related a (mostly false) story of how early-20th century US troops executed captured insurgents using bullets dipped in pigs' blood. He thought that was "great" and "beautiful" etc. This is the man you want to vote for but Clinton is a "warlord"?

Well said.
And YES.
Frankly it's more a vote against Clinton than for Trump.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
What are Clinton's war crimes and how do they compare to Trump's promise to bring back lots more torture and target the families of suspected terrorists? Trump related a (mostly false) story of how early-20th century US troops executed captured insurgents using bullets dipped in pigs' blood. He thought that was "great" and "beautiful" etc. This is the man you want to vote for but Clinton is a "warlord"?
Well said.
And YES.
Disgusting.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What are Clinton's war crimes and how do they compare to Trump's promise to bring back lots more torture and target the families of suspected terrorists? Trump related a (mostly false) story of how early-20th century US troops executed captured insurgents using bullets dipped in pigs' blood. He thought that was "great" and "beautiful" etc. This is the man you want to vote for but Clinton is a "warlord"?
Trump does indeed look risky.
But while he's all talk so far, Hillary is an actual war monger with an extensive record & her own offensive exhortations.
She almost comes with a guarantee of more military misadventurism....which is really disturbing because it appears
most Democrats tacitly approve of this. In a way, if they truly believe Trump to be a violent psychopath, then he should
be their guy. But of course, we know that what really matters is that war is OK when one's own party is pushing it, but
wrong when it's the other party.
 
Trump does indeed look risky.
But while he's all talk so far, Hillary is an actual war monger with an extensive record & her own offensive exhortations.
Trump's talk is far more hawkish than Clinton's record. While Clinton was SoS the US ended enhanced interrogation techniques, pulled out of Iraq, did not invade Syria, did not send troops into Libya to topple Qaddafi, did not say hateful things which turn Muslims against the US, engaged in limited bombing of Iraq oil fields to hurt ISIS but not do irreparable harm to the country, and made a deal with Iran. That is her record. By contrast, Trump wants to bring on lots more torture, said we should have gone in with "tremendous force" in Syria, we should have sent troops into Libya to topple Qaddafi (though I think he later reversed himself), he says hateful things against Muslims and targeting families, wants to "bomb the hell out of" ISIS oil fields in Iraq, and wants to tear up the deal with Iran.

While Clinton is not a dove, you really have to tilt your head sideways and squint hard to turn that fact pattern into "I'm voting for Trump because Clinton is a warlord".
 
That pretty much describes how I feel about elections, including this one.
It's why I'll read some excerpts from 'debates', but never watch or listen to one.
Ew.
Respectfully, it shows. I don't think you realize the extent of the things Trump has said. I have watched Trump many times in the debates and in his press conferences and initially I had an open mind. Whether he's genuine or phony, either possibility is very ugly and totally beyond the pale compared to, in my opinion, any general election candidate for President in my lifetime.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Trump's talk is far more hawkish than Clinton's record. While Clinton was SoS the US ended enhanced interrogation techniques, pulled out of Iraq, did not invade Syria, did not send troops into Libya to topple Qaddafi, did not say hateful things which turn Muslims against the US, engaged in limited bombing of Iraq oil fields to hurt ISIS but not do irreparable harm to the country, and made a deal with Iran. That is her record. By contrast, Trump wants to bring on lots more torture, said we should have gone in with "tremendous force" in Syria, we should have sent troops into Libya to topple Qaddafi (though I think he later reversed himself), he says hateful things against Muslims and targeting families, wants to "bomb the hell out of" ISIS oil fields in Iraq, and wants to tear up the deal with Iran.

While Clinton is not a dove, you really have to tilt your head sideways and squint hard to turn that fact pattern into "I'm voting for Trump because Clinton is a warlord".
It's fine for you to list ways in which she can be seen as not hawkish,
but I'm looking at the reasons she is. Comparing her record with
Trump's talk, I'll put my money (reluctantly) on the latter.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Respectfully, it shows.
Does anything positive ever start out with the word, "respectively"?
I don't think you realize the extent of the things Trump has said.
I think I do.
But I prefer reading over listening.
On occasion, where there are conflicting reports, I'll find a youtube snippet.
I've found that leftish media will misquote him to serve their campaign against him, eg, NPR.
I have watched Trump many times in the debates and in his press conferences and initially I had an open mind. Whether he's genuine or phony, either possibility is very ugly and totally beyond the pale compared to, in my opinion, any general election candidate for President in my lifetime.
Perhaps watching debates colors your impression.
Since he behaves boorishly, if one is offended by that, it can cause prejudice.
 
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