Whore of Babylon

[Shiranui117]

Today---Jesus represents a king sitting on a throne, not a mortal being pegged to a pagan symbol. ( stake, or pole is the correct translation of the greek word stauros---not cross.
The cross = the table of demons--Jesus has 0 to do with it. The great apostasy brought it in.

What's pagan about the Cross? What evidence do you have?

 

[kjw47]

What's pagan about the Cross? What evidence do you have?

there are many forms of the cross out of paganism----- the one churches use--the swastika( cross with extra lines---Egyptian circle on a pole with crossbeam----all origins in paganism( table of demons)

ancient Chaldea--symbol of the god Tammuz,

the cross has been used for Babylonian sun god--

the companion bible-appendix #162---also --the non Christian cross pg 133-141

 

[Pegg]

Well: "Christian tradition and secular historical sources hold Nero as the first major state sponsor of Christian persecution, and sometimes as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. Some 2nd- and 3rd-century theologians, among others, recorded their belief that Nero would return from death or exile, usually as 'the Anti-Christ. He is also seen as one of the most savage persecutors of Christians.'" -- Nero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, if you can find it, maybe check out "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson.

Im interested in the traditional beliefs of Jesus.... but those later christians went off on a lot of different paths.

 

[Pegg]

Sorry, I meant 1 Kings 6:

...

^God explicitly telling the Hebrews to make statues of Cherubim to put on the Ark.

You're right, these weren't objects of worship. Neither are Christian icons.

you are abosolutely correct, they were no objects of worship or devotion.

But I dont think the same can be said for the icons and images found in the churches today. People are praying to them... thats worship.

 

[Shiranui117]

you are abosolutely correct, they were no objects of worship or devotion.

But I dont think the same can be said for the icons and images found in the churches today. People are praying to them... thats worship.

Absolutely no one prays to icons. Ever. They're pieces of wood and paint. We ask for the intercession of the Saints depicted in the icons, and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. Icons are not worshipped in any way, shape or form. We don't even worship an icon of Christ in order to worship Him Who is depicted. We are very strict about not ever worshipping icons.

 

[Pegg]

Absolutely no one prays to icons. Ever. They're pieces of wood and paint. We ask for the intercession of the Saints depicted in the icons, and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. Icons are not worshipped in any way, shape or form.

1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus

You need only pray to God through Christ.... he is the mediator, no one else.

I understand the priests often believe they are the mediators... but that is just not true. there are no mediators besides Jesus.

 

[Shiranui117]

1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus

You need only pray to God through Christ.... he is the mediator, no one else.

I understand the priests often believe they are the mediators... but that is just not true. there are no mediators besides Jesus.

Do you pray for other people?

 

[Pegg]

Do you pray for other people?

Sorry, i thought you asked to I pray 'to others'

Of course i pray 'for' others.... but i pray to Jehovah, not to anyone else.






no. Of what need do we have to pray to anyone but God?

The scriptures are clear that, through Christ, we have an approach to God

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him....16 Let us, then, approach the throne of undeserved kindness with freeness of speech, so that we may receive mercy and find undeserved kindness to help us at the right time.

Ephesians 3:11, 12 This is according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord, 12 by means of whom we have this freeness of speech and free access with confidence through our faith in him.

And how did Jesus instruct his followers to pray? It was like this:

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.
9 “You must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.



Jesus didnt recommend that we pray through his apostles or any other person... but we pray directly to God and God will hear us. If we pray to someone else, will God hear you??? Im not sure he will.

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry, i thought you asked to I pray 'to others'

Of course i pray 'for' others.... but i pray to Jehovah, not to anyone else.






no. Of what need do we have to pray to anyone but God?

The scriptures are clear that, through Christ, we have an approach to God

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him....16 Let us, then, approach the throne of undeserved kindness with freeness of speech, so that we may receive mercy and find undeserved kindness to help us at the right time.

Ephesians 3:11, 12 This is according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord, 12 by means of whom we have this freeness of speech and free access with confidence through our faith in him.

And how did Jesus instruct his followers to pray? It was like this:

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.
9 “You must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.



Jesus didnt recommend that we pray through his apostles or any other person... but we pray directly to God and God will hear us. If we pray to someone else, will God hear you??? Im not sure he will.

Next question: Have you ever asked anyone in your church or family to pray for you?

 

[metis]

Im interested in the traditional beliefs of Jesus.... but those later christians went off on a lot of different paths.

Not really as your last comment to me indicated whereas you denied that the early church thought of Nero as a possible "anti-Christ". Is it really that difficult for you to admit you were wrong about this?

 

[Pegg]

Next question: Have you ever asked anyone in your church or family to pray for you?

not really no.

But im sure they have, just as i have for them.

This in no way means that I should pray 'to them' or they should pray 'to me'....which is the equivalent of praying to a so-called saint.

 

[Pegg]

Not really as your last comment to me indicated whereas you denied that the early church thought of Nero as a possible "anti-Christ". Is it really that difficult for you to admit you were wrong about this?

when you say 'the early church', you are not speaking about Jesus or his apostles or the foundation of belief laid down by them.

You are referring to Christians who lived several centuries after Christ and after the apostles.

Their teachings are wrong. Plain and simple.

 

[Shiranui117]

not really no.

But im sure they have, just as i have for them.

This in no way means that I should pray 'to them' or they should pray 'to me'....which is the equivalent of praying to a so-called saint.

No one prays to the Saints or to Mary (outside the sense of "earnestly asking" which is a non-religious meaning of the word "to pray" Which is where we get the expression "pray tell" from). Look up the word if you don't believe me). We ask for their prayers, same as one might ask a family member or fellow parishioner or priest. You yourself said that you were praying for me in this very thread, that I may see something.

 

[Pegg]

No one prays to the Saints or to Mary (outside the sense of "earnestly asking" which is a non-religious meaning of the word "to pray" Which is where we get the expression "pray tell" from). Look up the word if you don't believe me). We ask for their prayers, same as one might ask a family member or fellow parishioner or priest. You yourself said that you were praying for me in this very thread, that I may see something.

yes, but who do we pray 'to'

Thats the difference here. If i say i will pray for you, im not going to pray to Mary or to the apostles....im going to pray directly to Jehovah God because I know that Christ makes it possible for us to speak directly to God in prayer.

Do you see the difference here?

 

[Shiranui117]

yes, but who do we pray 'to'

Thats the difference here. If i say i will pray for you, im not going to pray to Mary or to the apostles....im going to pray directly to Jehovah God because I know that Christ makes it possible for us to speak directly to God in prayer.

Do you see the difference here?

Again, you don't pray to Mary or the Apostles, you ask them to pray for you, the same way that you would ask anyone else to pray for you. And of course we should always pray to God, but there's nothing wrong with getting more people to pray for you. The "cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews 12 includes the Old Testament Saints mentioned in Hebrews 11, and now, of course, the Saints of the New Testament. For all are alive in Christ (Luke 20:38). And as we know, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16).

 

[Pegg]

Again, you don't pray to Mary or the Apostles, you ask them to pray for you, the same way that you would ask anyone else to pray for you. And of course we should always pray to God, but there's nothing wrong with getting more people to pray for you. The "cloud of witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews 12 includes the Old Testament Saints mentioned in Hebrews 11, and now, of course, the Saints of the New Testament. For all are alive in Christ (Luke 20:38). And as we know, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16).

If they were alive, I can understand what you are saying, But they are dead.

So you are not talking to them the way you are talking to me right now. You actually must believe that they are in the position of God who hears prayers.

Those old testament witnesses are people who are dead and awaiting a resurrection. They can't hear you, so how can they help you???

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.


How can these dead ones help you?

 

[Shiranui117]

If they were alive, I can understand what you are saying, But they are dead.

So you are not talking to them the way you are talking to me right now. You actually must believe that they are in the position of God who hears prayers.

Those old testament witnesses are people who are dead and awaiting a resurrection. They can't hear you, so how can they help you???

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

How can these dead ones help you?

Back during the early part of the Old Testament, people were largely ignorant of what awaited them after death. Some thought as the atheists do, that we die and we're just gone. As we see with the Sadduccees, there were large numbers of Jews who believed that there is no afterlife and no resurrection of the dead, no angels, no demons, nothing--just this earthly life. Some thought as other peoples did, and believed that the dead would exist in Sheol, a realm of the dead where they exist as shades of who they were in life. Still other Jews believed as we Christians do, that Sheol is separated into compartments, with places for the righteous and the wicked (especially see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to get an idea of what this is talking about).

Jesus said that God is a God of the living, and not of the dead--He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This means that they are alive and with God, even if they are not alive in the body.

St. Paul says that he wishes to die and depart this world to be with Christ in Philippians 1:

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

So if Paul dies, then he goes to be with Christ. He doesn't go into nonexistence as you teach; rather, he goes to be with Christ.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

We are still largely ignorant of what happens after death....

 

[metis]

when you say 'the early church', you are not speaking about Jesus or his apostles or the foundation of belief laid down by them.

You are referring to Christians who lived several centuries after Christ and after the apostles.

Their teachings are wrong. Plain and simple.

Are you so unaware of church history whereas you can't make the connection with those in the 2nd and 3rd centuries that were an extension of the church of the apostles? Are you so unaware of early church history whereas these same people were the ones who eventually canonized "Revelations" and the Bible you now use? Are you so unaware of church history that you seemingly think that the appointees of the apostles seemingly just disappeared into thin air?

But I return to the point that you are totally contradicting yourself because you were the one who made the statement that the church did not feel the Nero was viewed by some as the "anti-Christ", and you simply cannot bring yourself to admit to your error. And to say "Their teachings are wrong. Plain and simple.", while providing not even one shred of evidence to support your claim is truly "unfortunate". You simply seem to be unwilling to accept Truth, preferring instead to formulate your own "truth". As the saying goes, you can have your own beliefs but not your own facts.

 

[kjw47]

Are you so unaware of church history whereas you can't make the connection with those in the 2nd and 3rd centuries that were an extension of the church of the apostles? Are you so unaware of early church history whereas these same people were the ones who eventually canonized "Revelations" and the Bible you now use? Are you so unaware of church history that you seemingly think that the appointees of the apostles seemingly just disappeared into thin air?

But I return to the point that you are totally contradicting yourself because you were the one who made the statement that the church did not feel the Nero was viewed by some as the "anti-Christ", and you simply cannot bring yourself to admit to your error. And to say "Their teachings are wrong. Plain and simple.", while providing not even one shred of evidence to support your claim is truly "unfortunate". You simply seem to be unwilling to accept Truth, preferring instead to formulate your own "truth". As the saying goes, you can have your own beliefs but not your own facts.

Gods word teaches--- one cannot partake of the table of God and the table of demons------ the cross--a pagan death implement--a few false gods in history had this as their symbol--thus= the table of demons---Jesus and his followers have 0 to do with the table of demons.