Whore of Babylon

[kaoticprofit]

why would it only be those from among islam???

About Babylon the harlot, Revelations states: “Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:24)

So the whore of Babylon would include ANY religious organizations who promoted or supported the death of Gods people. The churches of christendom are just as much a culprit in bloodshed as any terrorist organization.

The only way I know of to understand much of prophecy is to do a word study of the text. The word 'prophet' seldom indicates the prophets we are most familiar with in the New and Old Testament. The word often simply signifies one who is "moved by the Spirit of God" or one , "one who speaks forth or openly."

The words that most often leads many Christians into a misunderstanding of prophecy are small words like IF, BUT, BEFORE, Earth, World, Nations, and especially the word ALL.

The word earth seldom indicates the entire planet, and the meaning of it is determined by the text. In this case the text is referencing the Whore of Babylon and not the entire planet. Earth often means...

Arable land, the ground, the inhabited earth, a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region.

The word ALL in Revelation 18:24 is the word 'pas' which means 'individually'. The correct meaning is not indicating the entire planet but ALL those subject to the 'Whore of Babylon."

I want you to know that I often have to stand up for Jehovah's Witnesses on another forum. Many 'Christians' think that JW'S cannot be saved and I adamantly disagree with that belief.

 

[kaoticprofit]

The whore of Babylon was the pagan city of Rome, i.e. before she was Christianized. This is in keeping with the Roman Empire at the time being implicated as the bad guy who persecuted all the faithful.

As far as a modern incarnation of the Whore of Babylon goes, I'm minded to think that it's the US government--our politicians are effectively wiping out whole Christian populations in the Middle East, between Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt... Each of these countries had thriving and prosperous Christian populations before the US got involved, populations of Christians who had been living in those lands ever since the Gospel first got there in the first centuries after Christ. These Middle Eastern Christians had survived for 1400 years under Islam, and now the meddling of the US government is leading to the liquidation of these populations, after our mixture of blundering, ignorance and sometimes deliberately malicious actions destabilized each of these countries. And the worst part is, the US doesn't even care about the Christian holocaust that's happening. The media and the government are silent and turning a deaf ear to the pleas of even Christians here in our own country.

You cannot quote one verse that implies that Rome is the Whore of Babylon.

 

[Andywel]

The only way I know of to understand much of prophecy is to do a word study of the text. The word 'prophet' seldom indicates the prophets we are most familiar with in the New and Old Testament. The word often simply signifies one who is "moved by the Spirit of God" or one , "one who speaks forth or openly."

The words that most often leads many Christians into a misunderstanding of prophecy are small words like IF, BUT, BEFORE, Earth, World, Nations, and especially the word ALL.

The word earth seldom indicates the entire planet, and the meaning of it is determined by the text. In this case the text is referencing the Whore of Babylon and not the entire planet. Earth often means...

Arable land, the ground, the inhabited earth, a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region.

The word ALL in Revelation 18:24 is the word 'pas' which means 'individually'. The correct meaning is not indicating the entire planet but ALL those subject to the 'Whore of Babylon."

I want you to know that I often have to stand up for Jehovah's Witnesses on another forum. Many 'Christians' think that JW'S cannot be saved and I adamantly disagree with that belief.

A whore is a prostitute. One who has played the "harlot." It is a religious organization which has "prostituted" the truth. When the Holy Scriptures of the Bible mention a prostitute, she can easily be identified as the Roman Catholic cult. It is the RC that killed true believers. The Popes who instigated the murders have blood on their hands.

Just today I saw a banner in front of a RC church saying: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us.

That's blasphemy against the Holy Bible.

Almighty God can not have a mother. If He has, then the mother came first and then Almighty God. That's truly blasphemous. It's fine to call Mary, the mother of the man Jesus Christ. She was a sinner herself because she talked about her Son Jesus being her personal Saviour. Those without sin need no Saviour.

Mary the mother of Jesus is dead and buried somewhere in Israel. Her bones, like the bones of the penmen who contributed to the Holy Bible with their writing, are also still in the ground as dust. There is no way that dead people can pray because the Bible is clear that the dead know nothing.

About JWs : Let alone JWs , there are no human beings who are beyond Spiritual Salvation as long as they are still alive. Come death and everything for that person is over on earth.

 

[kaoticprofit]

A whore is a prostitute. One who has played the "harlot." It is a religious organization which has "prostituted" the truth. When the Holy Scriptures of the Bible mention a prostitute, she can easily be identified as the Roman Catholic cult. It is the RC that killed true believers. The Popes who instigated the murders have blood on their hands.

Just today I saw a banner in front of a RC church saying: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us.

That's blasphemy against the Holy Bible.

Almighty God can not have a mother. If He has, then the mother came first and then Almighty God. That's truly blasphemous. It's fine to call Mary, the mother of the man Jesus Christ. She was a sinner herself because she talked about her Son Jesus being her personal Saviour. Those without sin need no Saviour.

Mary the mother of Jesus is dead and buried somewhere in Israel. Her bones, like the bones of the penmen who contributed to the Holy Bible with their writing, are also still in the ground as dust. There is no way that dead people can pray because the Bible is clear that the dead know nothing.

About JWs : Let alone JWs , there are no human beings who are beyond Spiritual Salvation as long as they are still alive. Come death and everything for that person is over on earth.

Just saying so doesn't prove a thing. You have been misled by listening to the Protestants who have long stigmatized Rome as the harlot regardless of the lack of scriptural evidence.

Can you quote that one verse of prophecy I've been asking for that specifically implies Rome as the harlot or that implies Rome in any way in the end-times? Or are you going to adhere to the beliefs of the Protestant Prophecy experts who have misled millions making millions of dollars in the process?

A whore is a prostitute. One who has played the "harlot." It is a religious organization which has "prostituted" the truth.

That would be Islam. We Catholics believe in the same Jesus, the same God, and the same Apostles Creed as the Protestants.
Please read my home page...

http://www.blacksheepprophecies.com/

 

[Pegg]

The whore of Babylon was the pagan city of Rome, i.e. before she was Christianized. This is in keeping with the Roman Empire at the time being implicated as the bad guy who persecuted all the faithful.

revelation says that the whore 'sits on top of' the wild beast.... wild beasts always refer to political entities in the bible (See the book of Daniel)

So the whore of Babylon cannot be the city of Rome. Rome/Italy has no power over all the nations of earth today.

 

[4consideration]

***Mod Post***​

This thread has been moved to Scriptural Debates.​

 

[Shiranui117]

revelation says that the whore 'sits on top of' the wild beast.... wild beasts always refer to political entities in the bible (See the book of Daniel)

So the whore of Babylon cannot be the city of Rome. Rome/Italy has no power over all the nations of earth today.

You forget that the Book of Revelation is not only end-times prophecy, but also a book written to encourage persecuted Christians from those days to remain strong in the faith and not give into the temptations of a world and Empire dominated by falsehood and pagan religion.

Does Rome have a lot of political power now? No. But it sure did 2000 years ago.

 

[2ndpillar]

You forget that the Book of Revelation is not only end-times prophecy, but also a book written to encourage persecuted Christians from those days to remain strong in the faith and not give into the temptations of a world and Empire dominated by falsehood and pagan religion.

Does Rome have a lot of political power now? No. But it sure did 2000 years ago.

Dear Shira,
If you will note in Daniel 2, Rome has little power in the end, and will be mixed with common clay. As for the power of Rome in this generation, well, the 3rd Roman empire, the 3rd Reich, was recently defeated in 1945, but you must remember, the foot of iron and clay had 10 toes, and the beast of Rev had 10 horns. Hitler and Julius Caesar both usurped the Republic for a dictatorship, the same is being done today by our Muslim dictator in chief, Hussein Obama, in the form of executive orders to turn our country into an Abomination of Harlotry and Immorality. He is already scheduled to meet the pope, and work out the partition of Jerusalem, which is a sign of the times of Joel 3:2, in which the nations will be arraigned against Jerusalem and then be judged by the hand of God.

 

[metis]

"Babylon the Great" was a fairly common reference to the Roman Empire. The other reference, which is "Babylon", is in the feminine gender in Koine Greek, and that term shows up in one of the letters attributed to Peter, and that stood for "Rome", the city.

Generally speaking, Revelations is about conditions that existed during the time of the heavy Roman persecution of the church, and the general message is "Hang tough because with God and Jesus on our side, even death is still a victory". We know from early church writings that this is in general how they took it, but there was much controversy when it came time to select the canon in the 4th century because of different interpretations that had emerged.

 

[InChrist]

Several times in Revelation, Babylon/whore of Babylon is referred to as that great city. A city that sits on seven mountains ( Rev. 17:9), a city that reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev.17:18), a wealthy city, clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!(Rev.18:16), caused the nations of the earth to commit spiritual fornication (Rev. 14:8; 17"2-4; 18:3,9 and 19:2) and is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.(Rev.17:6)

I see Rome and Vatican City now in particular with the Pope as its head meeting these criteria through history since Constantine began politicizing the Roman Church.

 

[kjw47]

Why do many anti-catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18?

Babylon the great = world empire of false religions---Catholicism will be brought down first. Just as Gods word teaches--by the 7 headed beast-the united nations--it has begun. Once Babylon falls( like a swift pitch into the sea with a millstone around her neck) this starts the tribulation--the closing of the ark door to mankind as well.

 

[Shiranui117]

Babylon the great = world empire of false religions---Catholicism will be brought down first. Just as Gods word teaches--by the 7 headed beast-the united nations--it has begun. Once Babylon falls( like a swift pitch into the sea with a millstone around her neck) this starts the tribulation--the closing of the ark door to mankind as well.

So where does the 7 heads and seven hills thing come into play in this interpretation? And what about Babylon being a great city? And what about 666, the number of the Beast, being the numerical sum of the Greek letters in Nero's name?

 

[Pegg]

You forget that the Book of Revelation is not only end-times prophecy, but also a book written to encourage persecuted Christians from those days to remain strong in the faith and not give into the temptations of a world and Empire dominated by falsehood and pagan religion.

Does Rome have a lot of political power now? No. But it sure did 2000 years ago.

the words of Revelation wouldnt come into effect until after the 'appointed times of the nations' had ended as Jesus said at Luke 21:24

So the part about the whore of bablyon relates to a much much later time then when John wrote it.

 

[2ndpillar]

the words of Revelation wouldnt come into effect until after the 'appointed times of the nations' had ended as Jesus said at Luke 21:24

So the part about the whore of bablyon relates to a much much later time then when John wrote it.

Dear Peg,
Rev 17:10 was written during the 6th head of the beast in which the "woman" sits. "and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is,"

As for Luke 21:24, written by an associate of the self professed apostle and prophet Paul, it refers to a time when Jerusalem will be restored, which would be 1948, and the nations includes the nations camped around Jerusalem to destroy it, which would include the refugee camps of Edomites, planning to destroy Israel, which is the condition of today. (Joel 3:1-2)

Psalms 83:4 They have said, "Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation, That the name of Israel be remembered no more." Psalms 83:6 "the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites...."

 

[2ndpillar]

Babylon the great = world empire of false religions---Catholicism will be brought down first. Just as Gods word teaches--by the 7 headed beast-the united nations--it has begun. Once Babylon falls( like a swift pitch into the sea with a millstone around her neck) this starts the tribulation--the closing of the ark door to mankind as well.

Dear kjw,
The 7 headed beast of Rev 17 is the same 7 headed beast of Rev 13. With regards to the beast of Rev 17, Rev was written during the period of the 6th head (Rev 17:10) The beast parallels Daniel 7:4-7, in that the lion, bear, leopard, and dreadful beast, represent, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome (Rev 13:2). Rev 17 was written during the reign of the 6th beast, Augustus Caesar, which was the title of the kings of Rome following Julius Caesar, the 5th head which was slain,..and was healed. (Rev 13:3)

 

[2ndpillar]

So where does the 7 heads and seven hills thing come into play in this interpretation? And what about Babylon being a great city? And what about 666, the number of the Beast, being the numerical sum of the Greek letters in Nero's name?

Dear Shira,
The original number of the beast was 616. The beast would be Caius Flavius Valerius Constantinus the Great King of Rome, the emperor who established the Roman Church at the Council of Nicaea. Constantine was the beast with two horns like a lamb, the 7th head of the beast of Rev 17, who changed the Law and the Times.

His decree was to execute anyone who held literature saying there was only one God:"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment....." Arianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians[8]

Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,[ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[metis]

If one checks out the tense in regards to when "666" is used, what they'll see is that it is put in the present tense then. IOW, it had to be someone who was around when the verse was written, and Caesar Nero fits the billing quite well.

 

[Shiranui117]

Dear Shira,
The original number of the beast was 616. The beast would be Caius Flavius Valerius Constantinus the Great King of Rome, the emperor who established the Roman Church at the Council of Nicaea. Constantine was the beast with two horns like a lamb, the 7th head of the beast of Rev 17, who changed the Law and the Times.

Constantine changed neither the Law nor the Times. The Church had been worshipping on Sunday for centuries before Constantine, because it's the day on which Christ rose from the dead, and the Church had exempted Gentile Christians from being forced to follow the Mosaic Law as early as Acts 15.

His decree was to execute anyone who held literature saying there was only one God:

Then every single Christian would have been killed, had that been the case. We Christians also teach adamantly that there is only one God. If anything, the Arians would have been closer to polytheists, seeing Christ as a created being worthy of worship alongside God.

"In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment....." Arianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians[8]

On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed, Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then explain this:

"Constantine had Athanasius banished, since he considered him an impediment to reconciliation. In the same year, the Synod of Jerusalem under Constantine's direction readmitted Arius to communion in AD 336."

And also explain the fact that Constantine himself was baptized by his Arian cousin Eusebius of Nicodemia, and had Eusebius as his advisor. Quoting from the Constantine the Great and Christianity article that you yourself quoted:

Constantine was baptised into Christianity just before his death in May 337 by his distant relative Arianian Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia. During Eusebius of Nicomedia's time in the Imperial court, the Eastern court and the major positions in the Eastern Church were held by Arians or Arian sympathizers.[31] With the exception of a short period of eclipse, Eusebius enjoyed the complete confidence both of Constantine and Constantius II and was the tutor of Emperor Julian the Apostate.[32] After Constantine's death, his son and successor Constantius II was an Arian, as was Emperor Valens.


Try again, 2ndpillar. At least read your own Wikipedia articles next time.

 

[metis]

Constantine changed neither the Law nor the Times. The Church had been worshipping on Sunday for centuries before Constantine, because it's the day on which Christ rose from the dead, and the Church had exempted Gentile Christians from being forced to follow the Mosaic Law as early as Acts 15...

But you know the game that's been played here and for the last several centuries is that in order to justify the Reformation they have to vilify the church in terms of being "inauthentic" or entirely corrupt, so Constantine and the boys become the scapegoats. The reality is that Constantine and those who came after him spread the church and stopped the church from being persecuted.

Unfortunately, I do believe some serious mistakes were made then and over time, but there never was any guarantee that this couldn't happen. After all, the apostles made numerous errors, as the gospels verify. The church, much like the synagogue, was not made for "perfect" people, but for humans who can make mistakes.

And there's been plenty of mistakes made within the various Protestant denominations as we've seen. So, as the old saying goes, people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones-- or walking around naked.

 

[Shiranui117]

But you know the game that's been played here and for the last several centuries is that in order to justify the Reformation they have to vilify the church in terms of being "inauthentic" or entirely corrupt, so Constantine and the boys become the scapegoats. The reality is that Constantine and those who came after him spread the church and stopped the church from being persecuted.

Precisely. Constantine didn't change any teachings of the Church, but merely facilitated her stabilization and helped to make the Church more socially acceptable and secure.

Unfortunately, I do believe some serious mistakes were made then and over time, but there never was any guarantee that this couldn't happen. After all, the apostles made numerous errors, as the gospels verify. The church, much like the synagogue, was not made for "perfect" people, but for humans who can make mistakes.

Yes, the Church is a hospital for sinners, and that includes the clergy, and we all screw up from time to time.

But I'm curious as to what mistakes of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers you have in mind?

And there's been plenty of mistakes made within the various Protestant denominations as we've seen. So, as the old saying goes, people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones-- or walking around naked.

Right. My own Orthodox Church also has her own share of issues--some the result of a long and painful history under various authoritarian regimes that were by no means friendly to Christians (the Muslims for the Balkan, Greek and Middle Eastern Christians, the Mongols and Communists for the Eastern Slavs), but some are also our own fault (much smaller efforts at evangelization when compared to our Western Christian counterparts, phyletism).