Whore of Babylon

[kjw47]

So where does the 7 heads and seven hills thing come into play in this interpretation? And what about Babylon being a great city? And what about 666, the number of the Beast, being the numerical sum of the Greek letters in Nero's name?

There is much symbolism in revelation---- hidden from the evil one and from mortals. Truths would only be revealed in these last days Daniel 12:4)-- and only through Jesus' teachers.

The un is like an 8th king--it is telling sovereign nations they cannot do this or that or they cannot buy or sell--if they do things against the un policies, sanctions( cannot buy or sell) or if that doesn't work--the 2 horned beast ( excercises all authority of the 7 headed beast)makes fire come down from the heavens( bombs) upon them-rev 13

 

[kjw47]

If one checks out the tense in regards to when "666" is used, what they'll see is that it is put in the present tense then. IOW, it had to be someone who was around when the verse was written, and Caesar Nero fits the billing quite well.

The number of a man---number is the key word here, not man--it is not calling 666 a man.
This is the reality of that---

In the numbers of man--7 is given the title--complete--thus 6 falls short of complete--this is about the 3 ruling powers over mankind--all get a 6--all are incomplete in comparison to what Gods kingdom will do for mankind.
1) govts-6
2) false religionssssssssssssss-6
3) the commercial system-6

all promise a better life for mankind yet all have failed miserably.
All lose those power positions by the will of Gods kingdom----they do not want that--thus-antichrist.

 

[metis]

But I'm curious as to what mistakes of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers you have in mind?

It was a general statement of mistakes made by various leaders over many centuries, but let me just mention two that I think were major: sometimes becoming bed-buddies with secular leaders, and also allowing, and even advocating at times, the use of deadly violence, both of which I believe Jesus would have had problems with.

 

[metis]

The number of a man---number is the key word here, not man--it is not calling 666 a man.
This is the reality of that---

In the numbers of man--7 is given the title--complete--thus 6 falls short of complete--this is about the 3 ruling powers over mankind--all get a 6--all are incomplete in comparison to what Gods kingdom will do for mankind.
1) govts-6
2) false religionssssssssssssss-6
3) the commercial system-6

all promise a better life for mankind yet all have failed miserably.
All lose those power positions by the will of Gods kingdom----they do not want that--thus-antichrist.

I gotta go, but the above is highly unlikely. The verse indicates it's probably a man, plus Caesar Nero's name when subjected to using numbers, is represented by 666. There's also a secondary meaning in traditional Judaism whereas "6" sometimes was used to represent incompletion, thus evil, and repeating it three times meant "very much so".

I gotta cut this short as I'm leaving, but I'll be back later in the day. The

 

[Avi1001]

I gotta cut this short as I'm leaving, but I'll be back later in the day. The.....

Wow, you really did have to leave fast .

 

[InChrist]

I gotta go, but the above is highly unlikely. The verse indicates it's probably a man, plus Caesar Nero's name when subjected to using numbers, is represented by 666. There's also a secondary meaning in traditional Judaism whereas "6" sometimes was used to represent incompletion, thus evil, and repeating it three times meant "very much so".

I gotta cut this short as I'm leaving, but I'll be back later in the day. The

Very interesting and I have read before that the number six represents incompletion so that the 666 listed three times means totally incomplete, flawed and evil in contrast to God's perfection. While I think Nero fell into this type/category I believe the context of Revelation 13 indicates someone different and someone whose influence and power is on a global scale impacting the whole world and everyone on earth as the text says, along with the information concerning the control of all financial transactions.

And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

 

[kjw47]

I gotta go, but the above is highly unlikely. The verse indicates it's probably a man, plus Caesar Nero's name when subjected to using numbers, is represented by 666. There's also a secondary meaning in traditional Judaism whereas "6" sometimes was used to represent incompletion, thus evil, and repeating it three times meant "very much so".

I gotta cut this short as I'm leaving, but I'll be back later in the day. The

so what then-- a man with 7 heads and 10 horns that looks like a beast--this is what is guaranteed highly unlikely.

 

[metis]

Very interesting and I have read before that the number six represents incompletion so that the 666 listed three times means totally incomplete, flawed and evil in contrast to God's perfection. While I think Nero fell into this type/category I believe the context of Revelation 13 indicates someone different and someone whose influence and power is on a global scale impacting the whole world and everyone on earth as the text says, along with the information concerning the control of all financial transactions.

And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

But remember, to the people who wrote this, that area was to them pretty much the world. Also, the currency aspect was probably because of the fact that the currency sued had Caesars "picture" on it, which was not to be allowed in the Temple area because it could be construed as a graven image. So, what the money-changers did was to convert that over to more plain coins, for a price of course, which then became another source of contention.

The main point is that the view of Revelations was that it was a way of telling the faithful to stick with their faith no matter how dismal things may look, so it had meaning back then to those who were living a bit of a nightmare under the Roman persecution.

Even though it has no direct reference to later periods, its value is that the basic lesson can be applied at any time.

 

[metis]

so what then-- a man with 7 heads and 10 horns that looks like a beast--this is what is guaranteed highly unlikely.

I would have to look it up, but one of those is believed to relate to previous groups that dominated us, but I can't remember the other. As it is, I'm a bit too busy along with being not that terribly interested, but if you'd like, let me know and I'll see what I can supply you with tomorrow.

Shalom

 

[kjw47]

I would have to look it up, but one of those is believed to relate to previous groups that dominated us, but I can't remember the other. As it is, I'm a bit too busy along with being not that terribly interested, but if you'd like, let me know and I'll see what I can supply you with tomorrow.

Shalom

No need Metis, I appreciate the thought. I know my teachers have it correct.

 

[Shiranui117]

No need Metis, I appreciate the thought. I know my teachers have it correct.

What makes you so sure?

 

[Shiranui117]

It was a general statement of mistakes made by various leaders over many centuries, but let me just mention two that I think were major: sometimes becoming bed-buddies with secular leaders, and also allowing, and even advocating at times, the use of deadly violence, both of which I believe Jesus would have had problems with.

Ahh, yes, those were/are big problems. And the Church has had to experience again and again what happens when Church and State mix... Both generally suffer. Unfortunately, it still seems as if a lot of us Christians still haven't gotten the memo.

And lethal violence is of course an issue. I'm still not sure how any war can be called "just" from a Christian standpoint; at best, it's less unjust than the alternative.

 

[savagewind]

What makes you so sure?

They told him.

 

[kjw47]

What makes you so sure?

I learned Jesus' truths and applied them.

 

[Shiranui117]

I learned Jesus' truths and applied them.

And who are your teachers? What makes you think that they correctly understand Jesus' truths? What credibility do they have?

 

[kjw47]

And who are your teachers? What makes you think that they correctly understand Jesus' truths? What credibility do they have?

They have been fulfilling this-Daniel 12:4--- by making corrections of the many false teachings made over the last 1750 years or so.
So according to Daniel 12:4--many error teachings have been in place for the last 1750 years or so-- because God hid certain truths not revealed until these last days and now have become abundant--- this means the ridiculing hearts of darkness have looked and looked at the world for the ones who are making corrections to error teachings and can clearly see who they are--yet reject them as a cult because they teach something different than the mainstream religions claiming to be christian but have not made corrections because they reside in darkness, and no truths have been revealed through them--which must occur according to Daniel 12:4.

 

[Shiranui117]

They have been fulfilling this-Daniel 12:4--- by making corrections of the many false teachings made over the last 1750 years or so.
So according to Daniel 12:4--many error teachings have been in place for the last 1750 years or so-- because God hid certain truths not revealed until these last days and now have become abundant--- this means the ridiculing hearts of darkness have looked and looked at the world for the ones who are making corrections to error teachings and can clearly see who they are--yet reject them as a cult because they teach something different than the mainstream religions claiming to be christian but have not made corrections because they reside in darkness, and no truths have been revealed through them--which must occur according to Daniel 12:4.

Who is "they"? Who are your teachers? How do you know that the teachings of Orthodox Christianity are false, and that your own personal interpretation of the Bible is more correct than how the students of the Apostles interpreted the Bible?

 

[Pegg]

Who is "they"? Who are your teachers? How do you know that the teachings of Orthodox Christianity are false

because the teachings of the church do not harmonize with the bible and whats written in there.

 

[Shiranui117]

because the teachings of the church do not harmonize with the bible and whats written in there.

What if the teachings of the Church simply don't harmonize with your interpretation of the Bible and what you think it means, but the teachings of the Church are actually consistent with what the Bible actually says and means? How do you know you're interpreting the Bible more correctly than the thousands and thousands of other denominations with at least as much scholarly training as the JW's?

Everyone and their mother who holds to Sola Scriptura claims to have their understanding of the Bible revealed to them by God, yet there's absolutely no objective way of verifying who's right and who's wrong using the Bible and Biblical manuscripts alone. How do you know you have it right? You should be able to give a clear, concrete answer to this question that leaves no doubt. Something like an objective source external to the Bible that shows how the Bible was interpreted in the time of the Apostles...

 

[Pegg]

What if the teachings of the Church simply don't harmonize with your interpretation of the Bible and what you think it means, but the teachings of the Church are actually consistent with what the Bible actually says and means? How do you know you're interpreting the Bible more correctly than the thousands and thousands of other denominations with at least as much scholarly training as the JW's?

Everyone and their mother who holds to Sola Scriptura claims to have their understanding of the Bible revealed to them by God, yet there's absolutely no objective way of verifying who's right and who's wrong using the Bible and Biblical manuscripts alone. How do you know you have it right? You should be able to give a clear, concrete answer to this question that leaves no doubt. Something like an objective source external to the Bible that shows how the Bible was interpreted in the time of the Apostles...

the bible makes some very clear statements which do not need to be interpreted.

If i make a statement, its a fact. And the bible makes such facts. If someone were to interpret a fact differently to what is stated, they are changing what the bible says.

For example, the bible says of Adam's death; "for dust you are and to dust you will return"
What does a human become after death? According to this verse, dust. But some say they return to 'spirit' which is completely contradictory.