Who's doing the brainwashing?

[Katzpur]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

 

[Beta]

People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

You can take it both ways friend

 

[Blackdog22]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

Belief in nothing is the default position. Just like having nothing is the default position. If I have no TV and I want to choose a TV it would be better to have what is better or worse about each TV than me being brainwashed into thinking only Sony is great and everything else is a pagan TV(Lol, yeah I just said it).

Doesn't that kind of make sense?

 

[Breathe]

Imbecilic logic at its best.

I have to agree.

People will always try to make an excuse for their own behaviour though, I guess.

Belief in nothing is the default position.

Not always true.

For example, my children have shown totemistic tendencies and have have a tendency for anthromorphism.

My eldest (they're both young, my daughter is just coming 4) has also spoken of when she was a grandmother and the moments up to her death as that person in some detail, and in a mature, matter of fact way.

Whether they are real or are just her young childhood imagination (if they are her imagination, I'm going to make her write stories and sell them ) is irrelevant to the discussion, but I have not given the children these views. None of my family, including my wife and her family, discuss religion, souls, God, gods, the afterlife or other things like that with the children or even around them.

As a rule, the family will not even talk about "what Santa is bringing" because I do not like the idea of lying to my children. When someone did ask that very recently, this was my daughter's response (this isn't the first time):

"Ooh, it's almost Christmas. Do you know what Santa is bringing you?"
"Nothing. Santa isn't real."
"Of course he is!"
"Don't be silly, he is a pretend man."


Oh the look of hate I received.

 

[jumpingjoy]

Some people let their kids decide for themselves.

 

[HonestJoe]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

I see what you're saying and agree in principle but in practice it isn't as simple as that is it. When believers are teaching their children that there is a god, the typically teach an entire religion or doctrine as unquestionable truth, often including some form of divine punishment for not accepting it. This kind of thing will be much less common with non-believers.

I agree with the idea that children shouldn't be blindly indoctrinated with their parents beliefs regardless of what they are but I don't think the equally balanced image you present is accurate.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

No, both are pretty much the same.

Except, as with my personal experience and most of my friend's experiences, our parents who don't believe in God all taught us to come to our own conclusion on the subject and never forced atheism on any of us in any way.

 

[.lava]

Some people let their kids decide for themselves.

and that is exactly what happens eventually

.

 

[Noaidi]

Except, as with my personal experience and most of my friend's experiences, our parents who don't believe in God all taught us to come to our own conclusion on the subject and never forced atheism on any of us in any way.

I agree. My parents never talked about religion or the existance / non-existance of any gods. It just wasn't an issue. As a result, I was free to decide one way or another.
Atheists forcing "there is no god" on their kids is just as inappropriate as a theist forcing their religion on kids.

 

[Willamena]

Belief in nothing is the default position. Just like having nothing is the default position. If I have no TV and I want to choose a TV it would be better to have what is better or worse about each TV than me being brainwashed into thinking only Sony is great and everything else is a pagan TV(Lol, yeah I just said it).

Doesn't that kind of make sense?

No, it doesn't. "Belief" is not the default position.

 

[Midnight Pete]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

Very good, Katzpur! :clap

 

[jmvizanko]

and that is exactly what happens eventually

.

The fact that there are different religious regions of the world proves that your statement is false though. If everybody eventually chose their religion unbiasedly, then shouldn't the distribution of faiths across all regions of the world be uniform? The fact of the matter is, whatever religion most children have hammered into their head, or even brainwashed, ends up dictating their beliefs for life. And I think this is basically because we accept the reality with which we are presented. As well as, in my opinion, a large component of what we believe having nothing to do with choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

I'm not going to teach my children that there is no God.

I'm not going to teach my children that there is a God, and I may teach them that some people don't believe in God.

I have noticed something from being involved in the skeptic community: there are very, very few theists who identify themselves as skeptics... i.e. as people who endeavour to base their worldview on critical thinking and evidence. It seems that when a person is taught to "think for themselves" (as I understand the term), it generally leads to disbelief in God. Not always, but usually.

 

[ChristineES]

Teaching your children your beliefs is not brainwashing. It is something we naturally do. You can't live with a person without the person learning what you believe and vice versa. Katzpur is right, if teaching a child there is a God is brainwashing, so is telling your children there is no God. Using the old "children aren't born believing in God" is absolutely silly, as babies aren't born with any beliefs (or non-beliefs, to be PC) whatsoever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Teaching your children your beliefs is not brainwashing. It is something we naturally do. You can't live with a person without the person learning what you believe and vice versa.

I'm not so sure of that.

Speaking from personal experience, I never knew my father's religious beliefs growing up. I knew that the had been raised Irish Protestant, and I knew that he generally thought that both sides of the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland were dangerously foolish, but I didn't know for sure that he was an atheist until his funeral, when the officiant got his knickers in a knot when my Mom gave him my father's request that there be no mentions of God in his funeral service.

My parents tried to instill a lot of things in my sister and me: honesty, respect, a sense of responsibility, etc., but there were other things that they never discussed with us. My parents never told either of us how they voted until we were in our 20s. They never tried to push us in the direction of one career over another. On matters of conscience, they tried their best to leave it up to us.

Katzpur is right, if teaching a child there is a God is brainwashing, so is telling your children there is no God.

Do you think that atheists necessarily do this?

Using the old "children aren't born believing in God" is absolutely silly, as babies aren't born with any beliefs (or non-beliefs, to be PC) whatsoever.

I don't think that's true either. As I've mentioned before, it seems that we're born with a basic sort of animism.

 

[tomato1236]

Belief in nothing is the default position. Just like having nothing is the default position. If I have no TV and I want to choose a TV it would be better to have what is better or worse about each TV than me being brainwashed into thinking only Sony is great and everything else is a pagan TV(Lol, yeah I just said it).

Doesn't that kind of make sense?

Does this apply to all teachings? Do you let your little kid decide if he wants to stop hitting his sister? Do you tell him, "There are lots of times to cross the street you can choose from, but I don't want to bias your view, so just go when you want." Do you let him decide how much junk food to eat? And whether he eats it before or after dinner? Do you let him decide whether or not he wants to go to school today? Whether or not to wear a coat out in the snow? Whether or not he should pee in his pants or in the toilet?

You make it sound like you're such a loyal parent by not teaching your kids what you value. A good parent teaches their kid everything they can to help them grow up happy, capable and healthy. My religion is important to me. As essential a truth as looking both ways before crossing the street. Or wearing shoes in the snow. It helped me grow up to be an intelligent, capable, healthy and happy person, and I intend to offer my son the same foundation I enjoy. If he wants to abandon all of that when he grows up he can. People do. This happens. But by giving my son the knowledge he needs to develop an acute understanding of his emotions, and the ability and hope to make changes in his life when times are rough, and to have good standards that lead to good associations and opportunities in life, and the love and humility that comes with knowing you have a father in heaven as well as one on earth, well, by so doing I hope to prevent a lot of spiritual and emotional tummy aches, colds, regrets, injuries and embarassing pee spots on the pants.

Anyone who has truth that they fully believe is necessary and beneficial and doesn't offer it to their child would seem to me irresponsible and unloving.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does this apply to all teachings? Do you let your little kid decide if he wants to stop hitting his sister? Do you tell him, "There are lots of times to cross the street you can choose from, but I don't want to bias your view, so just go when you want." Do you let him decide how much junk food to eat? And whether he eats it before or after dinner? Do you let him decide whether or not he wants to go to school today? Whether or not to wear a coat out in the snow? Whether or not he should pee in his pants or in the toilet?

You make it sound like you're such a loyal parent by not teaching your kids what you value. A good parent teaches their kid everything they can to help them grow up happy, capable and healthy. My religion is important to me. As essential a truth as looking both ways before crossing the street. Or wearing shoes in the snow. It helped me grow up to be an intelligent, capable, healthy and happy person, and I intend to offer my son the same foundation I enjoy.

I see a couple of qualitative difference between religion and these other things:

- if you leave a child to his own devices, he'll probably learn to appreciate that it is best to pee in a toilet or wear shoes in the snow. It might take a lot of soiled pants and frostbitten toes for him to get to that point, but it's still the obvious ultimate conclusion. Teaching him to pee in the toilet and to wear shoes in the first place is really just a matter of getting past the unpleasant parts of the process to the conclusion that was bound to happen eventually anyhow. However, what about religion? If a child is raised without your religion, will he naturally, inevitably end up a believer anyhow?

- you won't find that civilized, intellectually honest people will arrive at different conclusions about whether it's a good idea to pee your pants. Is there a legitimate spectrum of belief on the topic of religion?

 

[tomato1236]

I see a couple of qualitative difference between religion and these other things:

- if you leave a child to his own devices, he'll probably learn to appreciate that it is best to pee in a toilet or wear shoes in the snow.

He'll either learn to take care of himself, or he'll die. I don't know if you've ever been a kid or not, but they do some pretty stupid stuff.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He'll either learn to take care of himself, or he'll die. I don't know if you've ever been a kid or not, but they do some pretty stupid stuff.

I've never heard of a kid dying from peeing his pants too many times.

Now... do you feel like actually responding to the points I raised?

 

[tomato1236]

I've never heard of a kid dying from peeing his pants too many times.

Now... do you feel like actually responding to the points I raised?

I haven't either.

And no, I don't. I'll let the other readers take both posts for what they're worth. If I felt like responding, I would have.