Who's doing the brainwashing?

[.lava]

The fact that there are different religious regions of the world proves that your statement is false though. If everybody eventually chose their religion unbiasedly, then shouldn't the distribution of faiths across all regions of the world be uniform? The fact of the matter is, whatever religion most children have hammered into their head, or even brainwashed, ends up dictating their beliefs for life. And I think this is basically because we accept the reality with which we are presented. As well as, in my opinion, a large component of what we believe having nothing to do with choice.

i think you might be more wrong than i am. whether you believe there's God or not depends on your personal experiences and how you analyze them. people might be given fear and they could be oppressed by society but noone could be given faith by force. it always comes from within

.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was born Atheist and still an Atheist. I have three kids, one is a believer (christian side of thinking), one a believer..in "God" and Jesus, reads the bible but has not declared a denomination and another that believes in "God" and Jesus but doesn't read the bible and has not declared a denomination....and my wife is a Methodist. I'm truly the only Atheist in my household. I raised my kids to make their own decisions concerning religion. I'm not sure if any of you feel that is a right or wrong way to do it but that's what I did.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Bringing up a child is not brainwashing.
Most children at least adsorb the Culture, religion, and ethics and mannerisms of their parents and peer groups. ( in much the saame way as they learn language.)

This does not mean they accept any of it, but that they will know how to behave and get by in those groups.

What they eventually believe is a mixture of their upbringing and what in the light of their total life experience and education , is true and meaningful to them.

 

[Magic Man]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

People who believe in God most of the time teach their kids that there is a god. People who don't believe in God either teach their children that there is no god or teach their children to think for themselves about god after giving them all the info. If my kids end up believing in God, good for them.

I have to believe there aren't many people making the exact claim you make here. Usually, the claim is more "people who don't believe in God teach their children about religion, and the reasons they believe what they do".

 

[Magic Man]

I haven't either.

And no, I don't. I'll let the other readers take both posts for what they're worth. If I felt like responding, I would have.

Why so snippety?

This is a debate forum. Generally the way it goes is you say something. If someone else disagrees, they post a response, challenging your ideas. Then you respond to their response. You posted something with some problems in the logic. Penguin pointed out the problems with the logic, while asking you some questions. It's customary for you to then respond to his criticisms of your argument and answer his questions.

 

[Mister Emu]

We influence our children through our acts as much as what we tell them. We can tell them not to drink, but if get drunk all the time in front of them what do you think will happen?

That is, if we are faithful Christians and act accordingly we will influence our children with or without indoctrination.

And it is that, teaching your child your faith is indoctrination, not brainwashing.

What else should we not indoctrine our children in? Language, mathematics, looking both ways before crossing the street?

And what kind of hateful person would a fundamentalist parent have to be to deny teaching their child the only path to salvation when all other roads lead to eternal torment? Could you imagine knowing that if your child does not do something that he or she will be tormented forever and then saying 'Oh, we shouldn't overly influence their decision, let him/her make up their own mind."?

 

[tomato1236]

Why so snippety?

This is a debate forum. Generally the way it goes is you say something. If someone else disagrees, they post a response, challenging your ideas. Then you respond to their response. You posted something with some problems in the logic. Penguin pointed out the problems with the logic, while asking you some questions. It's customary for you to then respond to his criticisms of your argument and answer his questions.

Touche.

I understand how a debate works...I just don't feel obliged to respond simply because it's the rules of the game. I posted my argument and Penguin found problems with it. Great. Other people will to. Hopefully there will be some with whom it resonates. In either case, I don't feel like defending it.

 

[Magic Man]

We influence our children through our acts as much as what we tell them. We can tell them not to drink, but if get drunk all the time in front of them what do you think will happen?

That is, if we are faithful Christians and act accordingly we will influence our children with or without indoctrination.

Not really. My parents set a very good example for me and my brother, as far as being good people and good Christians. I'm trying to follow in their footsteps in the good people department, but not the good Christians department.

And it is that, teaching your child your faith is indoctrination, not brainwashing.

Yes, but the only real distinction there is between forcing certain ideas into an empty brain rather than forcing them into a brain in place of other ideas. You are correct that it's indoctrination rather than brainwashing that we're discussing, but I don't think that makes it any better.

What else should we not indoctrine our children in? Language, mathematics, looking both ways before crossing the street?

Those things aren't indoctrination.

And what kind of hateful person would a fundamentalist parent have to be to deny teaching their child the only path to salvation when all other roads lead to eternal torment? Could you imagine knowing that if your child does not do something that he or she will be tormented forever and then saying 'Oh, we shouldn't overly influence their decision, let him/her make up their own mind."?

That's why the main problem is the teachings of the religion. Yes, if you really believe that someone who doesn't believe will be tortured eternally in hell, it would only make sense to teach them to believe. But it's still indoctrination, and then the problem is more in the religion than the people, or at least more in the fact that the people are so gullible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What else should we not indoctrine our children in? Language, mathematics, looking both ways before crossing the street?

Politics comes to mind, as I mentioned before. I consider politics to be very important, but I'm not going to pressure my children to adopt my ideology.

And what kind of hateful person would a fundamentalist parent have to be to deny teaching their child the only path to salvation when all other roads lead to eternal torment? Could you imagine knowing that if your child does not do something that he or she will be tormented forever and then saying 'Oh, we shouldn't overly influence their decision, let him/her make up their own mind."?

But the fundamentalist parent doesn't know. If something is that vital, then doesn't the parent have an obligation to confirm that their beliefs are accurate?

If I thought that something could be a threat to the life of my child, I would want to know without question that I understood the threat properly. Simply trusting a "feeling in my heart" or the like would be totally insufficient.

Something else occurs to me: if the parents are Calvinistic enough to think that nothing human beings can do would affect whether or not we're saved, then logically, they shouldn't care how their kids are raised, because it wouldn't matter at all.

 

[Magic Man]

Touche.

I understand how a debate works...I just don't feel obliged to respond simply because it's the rules of the game. I posted my argument and Penguin found problems with it. Great. Other people will to. Hopefully there will be some with whom it resonates. In either case, I don't feel like defending it.

OK, so what you're interested in is presenting your opinions, but not discussing them? What's the point of being on a debate forum/thread then, out of curiosity?

 

[tomato1236]

OK, so what you're interested in is presenting your opinions, but not discussing them? What's the point of being on a debate forum/thread then, out of curiosity?

To read it and put in my two cents. Unfortunately there are times when interesting subjects live in the debate realm rather than in the discussion realm. It's a terrific waste. A subject that I am interested in just gets tossed back and forth by folks who are more interested in the rules of debate, and the location of the issue, than they are in the actual issue at hand. So If I have something to say about it, it's invalid unless I'm willing to bicker about it after I post. I'm sorry I haven't debated. I don't really care for debate for the sake of debate. I do care for reading, and posting my feeling on an issue, and allowing people to have their way with what I wrote. I don't see myself avoiding half the threads on RF just because they happen to be in debate DIRs. I apologize in advance for my intolerable rebelliousness. :sleep:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What else should we not indoctrine our children in? Language, mathematics, looking both ways before crossing the street?

But we know that learning and understanding these fundamentals are necessary to them in the natural world around them.

And what kind of hateful person would a fundamentalist parent have to be to deny teaching their child the only path to salvation when all other roads lead to eternal torment?

But don't you see that the mere asking of this kind of question smells of religious indoctrination?

Could you imagine knowing that if your child does not do something that he or she will be tormented forever and then saying 'Oh, we shouldn't overly influence their decision, let him/her make up their own mind."?

But that's just it. One doesn't know.....If we presume to know and overly influence our children decisions then doesn't that sound like indoctrination to you?

 

[Magic Man]

To read it and put in my two cents. Unfortunately there are times when interesting subjects live in the debate realm rather than in the discussion realm. It's a terrific waste. A subject that I am interested in just gets tossed back and forth by folks who are more interested in the rules of debate, and the location of the issue, than they are in the actual issue at hand. So If I have something to say about it, it's invalid unless I'm willing to bicker about it after I post. I'm sorry I haven't debated. I don't really care for debate for the sake of debate. I do care for reading, and posting my feeling on an issue, and allowing people to have their way with what I wrote. I don't see myself avoiding half the threads on RF just because they happen to be in debate DIRs. I apologize in advance for my intolerable rebelliousness. :sleep:

No, I got it. It just doesn't make sense. Why go to a place where people debate stuff, if you're only interested in posting your opinions on things, and then moving on? A debate/discussion involves posting your opinion, and then sticking around for a little back and forth. Simply posting your opinions and then ignoring others' questions/responses to them is more like proselytizing than having a discussion/debate.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To read it and put in my two cents. Unfortunately there are times when interesting subjects live in the debate realm rather than in the discussion realm. It's a terrific waste. A subject that I am interested in just gets tossed back and forth by folks who are more interested in the rules of debate, and the location of the issue, than they are in the actual issue at hand. So If I have something to say about it, it's invalid unless I'm willing to bicker about it after I post. I'm sorry I haven't debated. I don't really care for debate for the sake of debate. I do care for reading, and posting my feeling on an issue, and allowing people to have their way with what I wrote. I don't see myself avoiding half the threads on RF just because they happen to be in debate DIRs. I apologize in advance for my intolerable rebelliousness. :sleep:

Yeah...shame on you.....:slap:

I kid, I kid....I just couldn't resist using that emoticon...!

 

[Mister Emu]

Not really. My parents set a very good example for me and my brother, as far as being good people and good Christians. I'm trying to follow in their footsteps in the good people department, but not the good Christians department.

I'm not saying that the influence is perfect, none are. But it is an influence.

My point is that we influence our children, (bad english aside) we can't not influence them. We can decide how we go about it(not necessarily how it will effect them though).

You are correct that it's indoctrination rather than brainwashing that we're discussing, but I don't think that makes it any better.

It makes the statements more accurate And, the impropriety of brainwashing is evident in denotation as well as connotation.

Those things aren't indoctrination.

That depends on how broadly you are using the term...

That's why the main problem is the teachings of the religion.

It is only really a problem if they are untrue.

Politics comes to mind, as I mentioned before. I consider politics to be very important, but I'm not going to pressure my children to adopt my ideology.

But will you try to sanitize your life from influencing your child in adopting your views? Will you not teach your values and how they effect your societal outlook?

But the fundamentalist parent doesn't know.

But they do. They know.

Something else occurs to me: if the parents are Calvinistic enough

Indeed, it seems extreme-determinism Calvinists would act differently as opposed to those who believe we must freely accept.

 

[Mister Emu]

But we know that learning and understanding these fundamentals are necessary to them in the natural world around them.

Thuse the consequences of not teaching these things, of letting them make up their own minds on these issues, demand that we ensure they know them?

But don't you see that the mere asking of this kind of question smells of religious indoctrination?

Perspective of the parent.

But that's just it. One doesn't know.....If we presume to know and overly influence our children decisions then doesn't that sound like indoctrination to you?

I don't necessarily have a problem with indoctrination. There can be a point where it reaches abuse, but it need not be so. I have no problem with someone teaching their child their values and beliefs.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not saying that the influence is perfect, none are. But it is an influence.

My point is that we influence our children, (bad english aside) we can't not influence them. We can decide how we go about it(not necessarily how it will effect them though).

Yes, we influence the, but influencing them by being a good person is different than influencing them by teaching them that God exists and all of this dogma is true.

It makes the statements more accurate And, the impropriety of brainwashing is evident in denotation as well as connotation.

What I'm saying is that indoctrination is no less improper than brainwashing.

That depends on how broadly you are using the term...

Right, and since in this case, we're not talking about just teaching people about something (otherwise we could just use the term "teaching"). We're talking about the "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view" definition. Teaching kids about math or language is not imbuing them with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

It is only really a problem if they are untrue.

Yes, as I said, it is the main problem of religion.

 

[tomato1236]

No, I got it. It just doesn't make sense. Why go to a place where people debate stuff, if you're only interested in posting your opinions on things, and then moving on? A debate/discussion involves posting your opinion, and then sticking around for a little back and forth. Simply posting your opinions and then ignoring others' questions/responses to them is more like proselytizing than having a discussion/debate.

Meh. I don't think I proselytized. I didn't teach the tenets of my faith. I just made what, to me, is a common-sense summary of the issue. You may not think that religion and wetting the bed are the same thing, and well, in total, neither do I, but where, to me, my religion is as true as the value of sharing, or even education itself, it's important to me to teach my kids. I don't think this is an overt or covert advertisement of LDS doctrine or invitation to join. I'm just saying what I think.

 

[Magic Man]

Meh. I don't think I proselytized. I didn't teach the tenets of my faith. I just made what, to me, is a common-sense summary of the issue. You may not think that religion and wetting the bed are the same thing, and well, in total, neither do I, but where, to me, my religion is as true as the value of sharing, or even education itself, it's important to me to teach my kids. I don't think this is an overt or covert advertisement of LDS doctrine or invitation to join. I'm just saying what I think.

No, no. I wasn't trying to say you're proselytizing. That's why I said it was "like" it, not actually it. Although, you can proselytize more than just religion.

I just find great value in discussing opinions, rather than just stating them. A lot can be learned from the discussion, which I know because I've personally learned a lot from discussions on here and elsewhere. I just don't understand what's useful about posting your opinion, and then moving on.

 

[The Bright Beast]

Some people let their kids decide for themselves.

yep, if I have kids, I'll let them make a choice based upon how THEY want to live, rather than how I want them to live.