Who's doing the brainwashing?

[tomato1236]

No, no. I wasn't trying to say you're proselytizing. That's why I said it was "like" it, not actually it. Although, you can proselytize more than just religion.

I just find great value in discussing opinions, rather than just stating them. A lot can be learned from the discussion, which I know because I've personally learned a lot from discussions on here and elsewhere. I just don't understand what's useful about posting your opinion, and then moving on.

Sometimes I join the debate. Other times I get tired. Just tired. Now is one of those times.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But will you try to sanitize your life from influencing your child in adopting your views?

To an extent, yes.

For instance, I don't plan to ever have a candidate's sign on my front lawn or have a party membership* until I feel that my children have reached a point where they wouldn't be tempted to follow me just because "Dad does it".



*I know that registering as a Democrat or Republican is fairly common in the US. Here in Canada, political party membership is much rarer. Most people have no formal affiliation with a political party.

Will you not teach your values and how they effect your societal outlook?

Sure, but one of my important values is free inquiry. I'm more interested in encouraging them to come to their own conclusion than to simply hand them the conclusion that I've reached.

But they do. They know.

Feeling very certain is not the same thing as knowing.

If I really did think that not getting my kids to do what God wants of them could send them to Hell, then it would behoove me to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that what I'm teaching them is correct: what do I believe? How do I know it's right? How do I know that the authorities I derive my beliefs from are actually authoritative? How do I know that God wants (denomination X's version) and not (denomination Y's version)?

And once I know the answers to all that, how do I know that I know what I think I know?

I agree that if I adopt a fundamentalist mindset, then I'd see the religious upbringing of my kids as a very vital matter: in my mind, it would be a matter of literal life and death. However, if I were to go that far, I don't see how I'd then be content with a mere feeling as the basis of my faith.

If (as a hypothetical fundamentalist) I don't indoctrinate my children in my beliefs, they could be tortured for eternity... I get the reasoning so far (in that mindset, anyhow). But at the same time, if I'm mistaken in those beliefs and I indoctrinate them in the "wrong" way, they could be tortured for eternity anyhow.

Just as it wouldn't do for me to neglect the religious education of my children, it also wouldn't do to neglect making sure that this religious education is exactly correct.

I just think that this "life or death" attitude, when applied consistently, would imply a much less cavalier attitude toward truth than I see from many people who would want to indoctrinate their kids in their religion to save them from Hell.

 

[Autodidact]

People who believe in God teach their children that there is a God. They are brainwashing their children. People who don't believe in God teach their children that there is no God. They are teaching their children to think for themselves.

Imbecilic logic at its best.

Make assumptions much? If you want to know what people who don't believe in God do, ask us. Speaking for myself, I have never taught my children that there is, or is not, a God. I have told them many times that is something each person needs to figure out for themselves. But yes, I do teach them to think for themselves, but don't see the imbecility of that. Could you explain?

 

[tomato1236]

Make assumptions much? If you want to know what people who don't believe in God do, ask us. Speaking for myself, I have never taught my children that there is, or is not, a God. I have told them many times that is something each person needs to figure out for themselves. But yes, I do teach them to think for themselves, but don't see the imbecility of that. Could you explain?

You have children?

 

[Autodidact]

i think you might be more wrong than i am. whether you believe there's God or not depends on your personal experiences and how you analyze them. people might be given fear and they could be oppressed by society but noone could be given faith by force. it always comes from within

.

Actually, what it mostly depends on is what you were taught as a child. What were you taught as a child, .lava?

 

[Mister Emu]

*I know that registering as a Democrat or Republican is fairly common in the US. Here in Canada, political party membership is much rarer. Most people have no formal affiliation with a political party.

As a tangent, how do your parties decide who is going to run as the party candidate?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a tangent, how do your parties decide who is going to run as the party candidate?

At the district level, typically the party members in that district vote on nominees. However, occasionally there are reports of the party head office "parachuting" a star candidate into the riding over the objections of the local party members. I'm not exactly sure of the mechanism there... I think it relies on arcane details of party constitutions.

For the leader, it's a lot like the US: districts send delegates who get together at a big conference, where they party and vote until one person is left.

The two main differences between Canada and the US are:

- you don't choose a party when you register to vote. If you want to be a party member, you have to talk to the party directly and pay your membership fee. This generally means that fewer people are formally affiliated with a political party.

- it's possible for us to have an election at any time and with as little as 36 days warning (typically it's more, but that's the legal minimum). Because of this, parties go through a constant process of electing or acclaiming candidates so that they're as close to ready for an election as they can be at all times.

 

[jmvizanko]

i think you might be more wrong than i am. whether you believe there's God or not depends on your personal experiences and how you analyze them. people might be given fear and they could be oppressed by society but noone could be given faith by force. it always comes from within

.

If that is the case, then why do most children in christian regions of the world grow up to be christians, muslims muslims, atheists atheists, etc... Why would their personal analysis mostly lead them to believe the religion of their upbringing and surroundings, if it is done unbiasedly and free from what has been hammered into their mind as being true?

I don't even know how you can make the statement you did in light of this simple observation.

 

[Katzpur]

Some people let their kids decide for themselves.

No, really? I honestly don't understand what people mean when they say that they're letting their kids decide for themselves. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics or anything else, kids are going to be influenced by their parents' perspectives, and no matter how hard a parent may try to present various alternatives to their kids and to do so in an objective way, his or her own biases are going to come through, probably when he is least aware of it.

Looking at something other than religion, for instance... I love the bumper sticker I see from time to time which says, "Nobody is born a bigot." I was raised in an atmosphere where my parents' and grandparents' strong opposition to racism was evident to me when I was literally six or eight years old. I can't recall ever having heard them sit down and tell me that judging a person as good or bad, smart or stupid, or trustworthy or devious based on the color of his or her skin, but you can be sure I knew it was wrong. The same holds true with regards to a belief in God, in my opinion. If parents believe in God, they are going to convey that belief to their kids whether they make a point of doing so or not. If parents think a belief in God is totally irrational, that's going to rub off, too. It just is. So why do atheists insist on saying that theists' children are "brainwashed" but that their own children are not? It's simply not how it works.

 

[Autodidact]

No, really? I honestly don't understand what people mean when they say that they're letting their kids decide for themselves. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics or anything else, kids are going to be influenced by their parents' perspectives, and no matter how hard a parent may try to present various alternatives to their kids and to do so in an objective way, his or her own biases are going to come through, probably when he is least aware of it.

Looking at something other than religion, for instance... I love the bumper sticker I see from time to time which says, "Nobody is born a bigot." I was raised in an atmosphere where my parents' and grandparents' strong opposition to racism was evident to me when I was literally six or eight years old. I can't recall ever having heard them sit down and tell me that judging a person as good or bad, smart or stupid, or trustworthy or devious based on the color of his or her skin, but you can be sure I knew it was wrong. The same holds true with regards to a belief in God, in my opinion. If parents believe in God, they are going to convey that belief to their kids whether they make a point of doing so or not. If parents think a belief in God is totally irrational, that's going to rub off, too. It just is. So why do atheists insist on saying that theists' children are "brainwashed" but that their own children are not? It's simply not how it works.

I think there's a big difference between saying, "I belong to the LDS church, but no one really knows; why don't you visit some various churches and form your own conclusion" vs. teaching your children that God exists and sent an angel to visit Joseph Smith, conducting prayers in the home, having the father give blessings, taking them to church one or more times every week, teaching them that whether they get to heaven after they die depends on what they believe now, that if they stop believing in LDS theology they will not get to live eternally with their family, etc. etc.

I don't know any atheists who do things like that. Most atheists were freethinkers first, and value agnosticism, questioning, and free thought.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, really? I honestly don't understand what people mean when they say that they're letting their kids decide for themselves. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics or anything else, kids are going to be influenced by their parents' perspectives, and no matter how hard a parent may try to present various alternatives to their kids and to do so in an objective way, his or her own biases are going to come through, probably when he is least aware of it.

I'm sure it happens, but that doesn't mean it's not something to avoid when we can.

You didn't do your children's math homework for them (or at least I hope you didn't); why not take the same approach on matters of faith?

It's like that old like about giving a man a fish: give a child a belief, and he'll learn one thing. Teach a child how to form beliefs on their own, and there's no limit to what they can learn.

 

[Katzpur]

People who believe in God most of the time teach their kids that there is a god. People who don't believe in God either teach their children that there is no god or teach their children to think for themselves about god after giving them all the info.

Giving them all what information? If you don't know what I'm getting at, read my last post.

I was taught that there is a God. I was also taught to think for myself. I was encouraged to question and I was never, ever made to feel guilty for doubting something I heard taught in church, as was occasionally the case. I know that a few atheists here are going to insist that being taught there is a God and being taught to make up one's own mind are mutually exclusive concepts. Well, that's their problem. They don't know my parents and it is pathetically naive of them to pretend that all believers come from the same kind of environments.

My sister and her husband have two sons, both adopted. The oldest is 19, the youngest 16. Both of these boys were raised in a home whether there was simply no mention of God. For those of who love to make the comparison, I'm pretty sure there was no mention of leprechauns either. My brother in law was what I'd describe as a strong atheist and my sister a weak atheist. The oldest of their boys, although he has probably never set foot in a church in his life, believes in God, or at least a Higher Power of some sort. I'm not even sure he has a name for this power, but he sees it as having a personal knowledge of and interest in him. I have no idea what the younger one believes. I'm relatively certain that a few of the more out-spoken, critical atheists here on RF would attribute the older boy's belief in God to his having somehow been brainwashed by society as a whole. I mean these people have to blame someone in the interest of always being right.

Anyway, this young man was certainly not brainwashed by his parents. If he has ever even had a discussion with a peer on the subject, I'd be surprised. The notion that belief in God is the result of parental brainwashing is a feeble attempt to hold one person responsible for another person's decision.

 

[Magic Man]

No, really? I honestly don't understand what people mean when they say that they're letting their kids decide for themselves. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics or anything else, kids are going to be influenced by their parents' perspectives, and no matter how hard a parent may try to present various alternatives to their kids and to do so in an objective way, his or her own biases are going to come through, probably when he is least aware of it.

Looking at something other than religion, for instance... I love the bumper sticker I see from time to time which says, "Nobody is born a bigot." I was raised in an atmosphere where my parents' and grandparents' strong opposition to racism was evident to me when I was literally six or eight years old. I can't recall ever having heard them sit down and tell me that judging a person as good or bad, smart or stupid, or trustworthy or devious based on the color of his or her skin, but you can be sure I knew it was wrong. The same holds true with regards to a belief in God, in my opinion. If parents believe in God, they are going to convey that belief to their kids whether they make a point of doing so or not. If parents think a belief in God is totally irrational, that's going to rub off, too. It just is. So why do atheists insist on saying that theists' children are "brainwashed" but that their own children are not? It's simply not how it works.

I disagree. Yes, kids are going to be influenced by their parents, but that doesn't mean you can't teach them to think for themselves. My plan with my kids is to teach them about religion because it's an important topic. I plan to take them to church, and possibly some other religious venues, along with teaching them at least the basics of Christianity and other religions. If they ask me what I believe, I'll tell them. More than anything, I want them to learn to use reason and logic and figure things out for themselves. There's a good chance that'll lead to them being non-religious, but my approach isn't to indoctrinate them into atheism.

There's a huge difference between "Billy, we go to church on Sundays because we worship God and his son Jesus. God created everything just like it says in the Bible, and Jesus was his son..." and "Billy, some people go to church on Sundays, and this is what they believe. Other people believe this, and others that.". It's like the difference between "Billy, blue is the best color that exists because..." and "Billy, my favorite color is blue, but favorite colors vary widely among people".

 

[Katzpur]

You didn't do your children's math homework for them (or at least I hope you didn't)

I couldn't have if I'd wanted to.

why not take the same approach on matters of faith?

For starters, matters of faith are not the same thing as solving a math problem. It would be as difficult to take the same approach on matters of faith as on something such as racism. (Sorry to use that one again; it's the best example I can think of.) Now if my son or daughter had had to write a term paper on something more subjective and I had coached him or her as to what to say, I believe it would be absolutely wrong. Of course I wouldn't do that.

It's like that old like about giving a man a fish: give a child a belief, and he'll learn one thing. Teach a child how to form beliefs on their own, and there's no limit to what they can learn.

I know what you're saying, and I agree to some extent. To another extent I disagree. A parent could decide that during the period of time between when his child was say, six and sixteen, he was going to expose him to as many different belief systems as possible. Then could go from church to church, including not only Christian churches but others as well. He could take his child to the library and check out dozens of books on religions where the adherents don't attend worship services at all. He could then provide his child with as much reading material as he could get his hands on about atheism. If you think that would be the best approach to teaching a child how to form beliefs on his own, I think you're dreaming.

The bottom line is that you don't "give someone else a belief."

 

[Magic Man]

Giving them all what information? If you don't know what I'm getting at, read my last post.

All the info on different religions. Maybe "all" isn't quite accurate, but the point is giving them some info on religions.

I was taught that there is a God. I was also taught to think for myself. I was encouraged to question and I was never, ever made to feel guilty for doubting something I heard taught in church, as was occasionally the case. I know that a few atheists here are going to insist that being taught there is a God and being taught to make up one's own mind are mutually exclusive concepts. Well, that's their problem. They don't know my parents and it is pathetically naive of them to pretend that all believers come from the same kind of environments.

Where is all of this sudden hostility coming from? The OP and this are very unlike you, from what I know. I don't think most of us pretend that all believers come from the same kind of environment. But you described your environment.

Yes, I was going to bring up the problem with being taught that God exists, but also to think for yourself. To use my color example, it's like a parent saying "Blue is the best color there is, but you can think for yourself". Basically, it's the difference between saying "This is the truth" and "This is what I believe".

My sister and her husband have two sons, both adopted. The oldest is 19, the youngest 16. Both of these boys were raised in a home whether there was simply no mention of God. For those of who love to make the comparison, I'm pretty sure there was no mention of leprechauns either. My brother in law was what I'd describe as a strong atheist and my sister a weak atheist. The oldest of their boys, although he has probably never set foot in a church in his life, believes in God, or at least a Higher Power of some sort. I'm not even sure he has a name for this power, but he sees it as having a personal knowledge of and interest in him. I have no idea what the younger one believes. I'm relatively certain that a few of the more out-spoken, critical atheists here on RF would attribute the older boy's belief in God to his having somehow been brainwashed by society as a whole. I mean these people have to blame someone in the interest of always being right.

Anyway, this young man was certainly not brainwashed by his parents. If he has ever even had a discussion with a peer on the subject, I'd be surprised. The notion that belief in God is the result of parental brainwashing is a feeble attempt to hold one person responsible for another person's decision.

I'm confused now. First, again, what brought on this anger? Second, wouldn't the fact that these atheist parents didn't bring up religion or the lack thereof mean they were letting the children think for themselves? Third, you seem to be moving on to a different point now. Yes, some children who grow up with atheist parents convert to religion. Christine is our resident example of that. And you don't have to be outspoken or critical to make the claim that it's because of the ingrained god-belief in society. Some people are just more prone to believe in it than others. Some conservative parents produce liberal kids and vice versa.

You're right that he wasn't brainwashed or indoctrinated. That's the point. His atheist parents apparently didn't indoctrinate him with atheism.

The fact is most children brought up Christian end up Christian, most brought up Muslim end up Muslim, etc. There's a reason for that, and it's indoctrination.

 

[Magic Man]

The bottom line is that you don't "give someone else a belief."

You can. Do you consider it a coincidence that most children in Iran end up Muslim and most children in America end up Christian? How else would you explain that fact?

 

[Katzpur]

I disagree. Yes, kids are going to be influenced by their parents, but that doesn't mean you can't teach them to think for themselves. My plan with my kids is to teach them about religion because it's an important topic. I plan to take them to church, and possibly some other religious venues, along with teaching them at least the basics of Christianity and other religions. If they ask me what I believe, I'll tell them. More than anything, I want them to learn to use reason and logic and figure things out for themselves. There's a good chance that'll lead to them being non-religious, but my approach isn't to indoctrinate them into atheism.

Well, that's good to know. I'm curious, though, how you will explain it is your kinds turn out to believe in God.

There's a huge difference between "Billy, we go to church on Sundays because we worship God and his son Jesus. God created everything just like it says in the Bible, and Jesus was his son..." and "Billy, some people go to church on Sundays, and this is what they believe. Other people believe this, and others that.". It's like the difference between "Billy, blue is the best color that exists because..." and "Billy, my favorite color is blue, but favorite colors vary widely among people".

I sincerely hope you are not thinking that "Blue is the best color because it's my favorite" was my approach. As you said, if your kids ask you what you believe, you'll tell them. That's what I did.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, that's good to know. I'm curious, though, how you will explain it is your kinds turn out to believe in God.

If my kids end up believing in god, I'd just figure they were the kind of people who tend towards god-belief, and of course, society would have an impact on it as well.

I sincerely hope you are not thinking that "Blue is the best color because it's my favorite" was my approach. As you said, if your kids ask you what you believe, you'll tell them. That's what I did.

You've never brought up your approach, so I wasn't commenting on it. I was commenting on the idea of teaching kids that there is a god. That would be the "blue is the best color there is" approach. If my kids asked me about colors, my response would be "Blue is my favorite color, but that's just my personal taste". If they ask me about my religious beliefs, I'll tell them "This is what I believe, but that's just me".

 

[ChristineES]

About this "being born an atheist" stuff: We are not born knowing any language, we are not born how to eat solid foods, we are not born knowing how to walk or even crawl, we are born as self-centered and selfish. Do you think it is brainwashing to teach your child common courtesy and how to share? Do you think learning the language we speak is brainwashing? (they only learn the one spoken to them, you know) Do you think it is even possible for our children NOT to learn what we believe. Are they supposed to plug their ears whenever we talk about our faith?
It is getting pretty scary out there when we are told we are brainwashing our children just by them learning our faith.
GET REAL, GUYS.

 

[Katzpur]

All the info on different religions. Maybe "all" isn't quite accurate, but the point is giving them some info on religions.

Yes, but giving them objective information on something that they are ultimately going to have to make a subjective decision on is quite a challenge. I don't know how old your kids are, but if you haven't started in on your project to educate them, you'll probably discover this at some point.

Where is all of this sudden hostility coming from? The OP and this are very unlike you, from what I know.

There's no sudden hostility. How many times do you think I should have to hear people use the word "brainwashed" to describe how people come to believe in God before I react by starting a thread on the subject. If you don't think it happens all that often, do a search on "brainwash."

The fact is most children brought up Christian end up Christian, most brought up Muslim end up Muslim, etc. There's a reason for that, and it's indoctrination.[/quote]I agree that most children brought up Christian end up Christian, most brought up Muslim end up Muslim. What you left out was that most children brought up atheist end up atheist. If indoctrination exists in one case, it exists in the other as well. And in each case, the parents congratulate themselves on having succeeded in effectively "taught" their children.

In your confusion over what you perceive as hostility on my part, you may have overlooked the fact that my OP does not say that people who teach their children nothing whatsoever about God have brainwashed them. It is the atheists who constantly use the word "brainwashing" my remarks were directed to. If you think that most of the people who insist on ridiculing believers every time they post are going to remain silent on the topic of God where their kids are concerned, I think you've been brainwashed! If the shoe doesn't fit, mball, I'm not asking you to try to cram your foot into it.