Who's doing the brainwashing?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I just had a thought right from left field. In addition to our children learning our faith just by observation of us, even if we don't actively teach it: What about teaching kids things we know aren't true- like Santa Claus? Then when they find out the truth: Most kids figure it out for themselves, but a few of them may become distraught. Could that considered a form of abuse?

I wouldn't call it "abuse" per se, but I do think it's harmful.

I plan to approach Santa Claus as a game: something that can be fun, but clearly pretend.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I really don't care what Dawkins thinks of how I raise my kids. I don't answer to him.

Good for you. He is one of the more hardline mullahs of Atheism.

 

[Magic Man]

Maybe you haven't read all of the posts.

Maybe I did miss something. Is there one you can point out for me?

There is a very fine line between teaching your kids your religion and teaching them that "this belief is the truth." For the record, I can't remember ever telling my kids "this belief is the truth." But seriously, would I even have taken them to church with me if I didn't think it was the truth?

Exactly. That's my whole point. You may not want to paint your way of telling them as "This is the truth", but your methodology did just that.

By practicing my religion, I am conveying to my children that it's meaningful to me. By volunteering in animal rights causes, I am telling my children that I believe this is important. By voting, I'm telling them I see this as my responsibility as a citizen of my country and community.

Yes, by practicing your religion, you're telling them that. And by forcing them to practice with you (taking to church with you), you're telling them that they should practice your religion too. The same goes for volunteering. If you're not taking them with you, then all you're doing is saying it's something you personally find value in. As far as voting, that's not quite analogous. It would work better if you were taking them with you to help you vote specifically for one party.

Speaking of politics, my views are pretty moderate and I seldom get awfully worked up over any candidate or proposition. In the last election, I voted for Obama. Let's say, though, that I was a die-hard, straight ticket Democrat. My kids (they're actually grown now, but assuming they were still at home) would undoubtedly have overheard me voicing my opinions on party politics. Just to keep things objective, should I make sure they get plenty of Fox News and hear a few speeches from some Tea Party folks, and then try to be careful to say nothing more than, "Well, that's how some people see it. I see it differently"? It sounds like a nice goal, but how realistic is it?

Ah, but here's the difference. As you say, you never really talked politics. That's not indoctrination. What you did was what most atheists tend to do regarding religion - not talk about it with their kids. That's the whole point. If you had taught your kids that democrats are the best and republicans suck, then that would be indoctrination.

For the record, I plan to indoctrinate my children into the belief that all Pittsburgh sports teams suck.

 

[Meow Mix]

I wouldn't call it "abuse" per se, but I do think it's harmful.

I plan to approach Santa Claus as a game: something that can be fun, but clearly pretend.

Perhaps Santa Claus can be an important lesson, though, in belief in what authority figures say. Kids who never believed in Santa Claus just because their parents said so don't experience firsthand that just because someone says something who's in a position of authority doesn't mean that they don't have to justify it.

I'm unsure how I'll approach Santa Claus but it seems like an opportunity to teach about belief in things authority figures say without evidence while being fun at the same time.

 

[Katzpur]

I'd say society gave your nephew that belief.

I'd say you couldn't be more wrong. I know for a fact that this was not what did it. Totally aside from what I know to be the case, if it were society, his belief in a Higher Power (that's all I'm going to call it) would be much more clearly defined that is actually is.

My point is that most parents do more than just give information. This is why I brought up the Iran example. You don't get the bast majority of people ending up members of their parents' religion when the parents just give them information. For that result, it takes indoctrination. That is not to say that all theist parents indoctrinate their kids.

Again, I disagree. That places the entire burden on the parents and it implies that people who were brought up in religious homes are incapable of doing any research on their own. I am willing to admit that there are religious people who indoctrinate their kids. I'm sure it goes on a lot. But to imply that a belief in a Higher Power is almost always a result of indoctrination is simply diametrically opposed to what I've seen in my own life and in the lives of a great many people I know personally. Not to mention the fact that it's really pretty insulting to the human race as a whole. You, for instance, managed to free yourself from the results of having supposedly been indoctrinated. Do you see youself as being so much more capable than the millions of people who continue to believe in God as adults?

 

[Midnight Pete]

And if that happens with my kids, fine. I won't ask them to be atheists; I just want them to think through their beliefs and come to them honestly.

I admire that. But I still think we impart our own values to our kids whether we realize it or not. Kids will pick up good attitude and bad from their parents without even realizing it.

Could a Neo-Nazi skinhead father raise his son or daughter to be anything but a White Nationalist? Probably not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good for you. He is one of the more hardline mullahs of Atheism.

Richard Dawkins is the atheistic equivalent of someone like Rowan Williams: mainstream-to-liberal, mostly harmless. I find that people make Dawkins out to be worse than he is because he's putting forward ideas from a different position than most people are used to.

You have yet to see a "hardline mullah" of atheism.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm unsure how I'll approach Santa Claus but it seems like an opportunity to teach about belief in things authority figures say without evidence while being fun at the same time.

Good luck.

 

[blackout]

"This is what I believe".... "and this is why"

or

"I don't believe that".... "and this is why"

followed by

"but YOU will have to decide what you do and don't believe in,
and what does and doesn't interest you for YourSelf."

These are appropriate responses to a young individual.

We should not try and tell our children how THEY should see life.
It's fine as parents, if we share with them how we do, though. of course.
If they want to explore other view points,
or they are not engaged by our own,
we should not try to make them be "like us".

We are all individuals. Even children.

 

[Katzpur]

I plan to approach Santa Claus as a game: something that can be fun, but clearly pretend.

I can hardly wait to see how successful you are at the "clearly pretend" part. Seriously, if I had it to do over again, that would be my goal. Having been there and done that, I can tell you it's a lot easier said than done. You'd have to say, "Santa Clause is a fraud. Your friends parents are liars and your friends are suckers if they believe in him." Trust me, I know.

 

[Katzpur]

"This is what I believe".... "and this is why"

or

"I don't believe that".... "and this is why"

followed by

"but YOU will have to decide what you do and don't believe in,
and what does and doesn't interest you for YourSelf."

These are appropriate responses to a young individual.

We should not try and tell our children how THEY should see life.

I agree. Do you have kids?

 

[Magic Man]

I'd say you couldn't be more wrong. I know for a fact that this was not what did it. Totally aside from what I know to be the case, if it were society, his belief in a Higher Power (that's all I'm going to call it) would be much more clearly defined that is actually is.

Why would you say I couldn't be more wrong. What evidence do you have? And why would it be more clearly defined? A friend of mine believes in some sort of higher powerish god, but not Christianity. He doesn't think a whole lot about religion, and that's why his idea isn't more clearly defined. I would suggest that's a good possibility for why your nephew's isn't clearly defined either.

Again, I disagree. That places the entire burden on the parents and it implies that people who were brought up in religious homes are incapable of doing any research on their own.

Actually, it doesn't imply that. It simply implies that either they never feel the need to do that research or the ingrained ideas about God are so ingrained that they find it hard to break away from them. I know how that is. It took me a long time to go from Catholic to atheist. Even when I started having questions, I still wanted to believe because it was such a big part of my life, and I was sort of afraid of what it would mean to not believe. I can see how many others would not go as far as I did, and stick with some sort of belief.

I am willing to admit that there are religious people who indoctrinate their kids. I'm sure it goes on a lot. But to imply that a belief in a Higher Power is almost always a result of indoctrination is simply diametrically opposed to what I've seen in my own life and in the lives of a great many people I know personally. Not to mention the fact that it's really pretty insulting to the human race as a whole. You, for instance, managed to free yourself from the results of having supposedly been indoctrinated. Do you see youself as being so much more capable than the millions of people who continue to believe in God as adults?

Honestly, I do see myself as more capable than many other people, at least in this respect. But there are other factors. For many people, the desire to conform plays a big role. Sometimes, people just never put the effort into thinking about it (sort of like my aforementioned friend).

Obviously there are exceptions, but the rule is that if you're brought up in a certain religion, you're going to end up a member of that religion. I'd be curious to know what it is you've seen in your life that means belief in a higher power is not a result of indoctrination most of the time.

 

[tomato1236]

"This is what I believe".... "and this is why"

or

"I don't believe that".... "and this is why"

followed by

"but YOU will have to decide what you do and don't believe in,
and what does and doesn't interest you for YourSelf."

These are appropriate responses to a young individual.

We should not try and tell our children how THEY should see life.
It's fine as parents, if we share with them how we do, though. of course.
If they want to explore other view points,
or they are not engaged by our own,
we should not try to make them be "like us".

We are all individuals. Even children.

I remember as a kid one day I didn't want to go to church. I told my mom this and she just said, "Ok. We'll see you when we get back."

I was so surprised at the unexpected response the choice suddenly fell to my own conscience rather than being told what to do, and suddenly I had a choice to make. I got my stuff together and joined the family for church. My parents never really forced me to do things. My dad was famous for saying, "If you feel that's the right thing to do, then go ahead."

 

[blackout]

[/b][/color]I agree. Do you have kids?

I have 4, though one is grown now.
(ie, not really a kid. )

 

[Midnight Pete]

Richard Dawkins is the atheistic equivalent of someone like Rowan Williams: mainstream-to-liberal, mostly harmless. I find that people make Dawkins out to be worse than he is because he's putting forward ideas from a different position than most people are used to.

You have yet to see a "hardline mullah" of atheism.

Now I'm curious. Who fits that description in your view?

 

[Midnight Pete]

I remember as a kid one day I didn't want to go to church. I told my mom this and she just said, "Ok. We'll see you when we get back."

I was so surprised at the unexpected response the choice suddenly fell to my own conscience rather than being told what to do, and suddenly I had a choice to make. I got my stuff together and joined the family for church. My parents never really forced me to do things. My dad was famous for saying, "If you feel that's the right thing to do, then go ahead."

Horrible abuse ... :sarcastic :sarcastic :sarcastic

 

[Katzpur]

I remember as a kid one day I didn't want to go to church. I told my mom this and she just said, "Ok. We'll see you when we get back."

I was so surprised at the unexpected response the choice suddenly fell to my own conscience rather than being told what to do, and suddenly I had a choice to make. I got my stuff together and joined the family for church. My parents never really forced me to do things. My dad was famous for saying, "If you feel that's the right thing to do, then go ahead."

Your conscience? LOL! I'm afraid not, tomato. Your parents had so successfully indoctrinated you that you were not able to make any other decision except to go to church. And all these years later, you still haven't figured that out. You still think you actually had a choice.

 

[Katzpur]

mball, are you starting to think that maybe we're at an impasse? I mean I don't mind continuing our conversation but it does seem that we're both starting to repeat ourselves.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I really don't care what Dawkins thinks of how I raise my kids. I don't answer to him.

And yet legions of freethinkers do. In lockstep, free-thinking to the beat of one drum.

 

[tomato1236]

Your conscience? LOL! I'm afraid not, tomato. Your parents had so successfully indoctrinated you that you were not able to make any other decision except to go to church. And all these years later, you still haven't figured that out. You still think you actually had a choice.

But wait, I thought UV said we are all individuals, even children! If I didn't have a choice...well ok. You're right. Even my posting here now about my beliefs are really just regurgitations of what my parents taught me. In fact, my mom is standing behind me with a cattle prod dictating to me what to type. Really I never believed any of iTZZZZZZT OW! It's all true. I will teach my kids. It's all true. I will teach my kids. My mom is the best. And a total hottie. (help)