Who's doing the brainwashing?

[Katzpur]

I remember as a kid one day I didn't want to go to church. I told my mom this and she just said, "Ok. We'll see you when we get back."

I was so surprised at the unexpected response the choice suddenly fell to my own conscience rather than being told what to do, and suddenly I had a choice to make. I got my stuff together and joined the family for church. My parents never really forced me to do things. My dad was famous for saying, "If you feel that's the right thing to do, then go ahead."

At the age of 15, my son started saying this pretty much every Sunday, but when given the choice to stay home or go, he'd stay home. My husband and I got tired of the weekly arguments so we finally asked our bishop, "Do we force the issue or just let it go?" A lot of people would probably guess that the bishop said, "As long as he is living under your roof, he should have to attend church with your family." Instead, his answer was, "Let it go. Let it be his choice." We did and he stopped going for good. Today, he is totally non-religious, but we have an absolutely fantastic relationship with him. I guess we did pretty well at indoctrinating him to believe in God. We just fell short when it came to indoctrinating him to be a practicing Latter-day Saint.

 

[tomato1236]

At the age of 15, my son started saying this pretty much every Sunday, but when given the choice to stay home or go, he'd stay home. My husband and I got tired of the weekly arguments so we finally asked our bishop. Do we force the issue or just let it go. A lot of people would probably say guess that the bishop would have said, "As long as he is living under your roof, he should have to attend church with your family." Instead, his answer was, "Let it go. Let it be his choice." We did and he stopped going for good. Today, he still doesn't go but we have an absolutely fantastic relationship with him. I guess we did I pretty crappy job of indoctrinating him.

You must not have arranged his alphabet soup into verses from the book or mormon and played the dramatized book of mormon tapes while he slept. Tsk tsk.

 

[Autodidact]

What you left out was that most children brought up atheist end up atheist. If indoctrination exists in one case, it exists in the other as well. And in each case, the parents congratulate themselves on having succeeded in effectively "taught" their children.

This doesn't follow. You'd have to talk to atheist parents and observe them. Do they actually bring their children to a special place once a week to chant special poems and sing songs about how there is no God? Do they tell them that their fate in the next life depends on whether they don't believe? In short, do they actually indoctrinate them, or not?

 

[Autodidact]

And yet legions of freethinkers do. In lockstep, free-thinking to the beat of one drum.

They all don't believe in the same God?

 

[Autodidact]

But wait, I thought UV said we are all individuals, even children! If I didn't have a choice...well ok. You're right. Even my posting here now about my beliefs are really just regurgitations of what my parents taught me. In fact, my mom is standing behind me with a cattle prod dictating to me what to type. Really I never believed any of iTZZZZZZT OW! It's all true. I will teach my kids. It's all true. I will teach my kids. My mom is the best. And a total hottie. (help)

Where did you grow up?
What religion were your parents?

 

[tomato1236]

Where did you grow up?
What religion were your parents?

I grew up in Washington state and my parents are both LDS. As were my grandparents on both sides. And their parents. And possibly their parents.

 

[Magic Man]

mball, are you starting to think that maybe we're at an impasse?

I figured that when the sarcastic responses that show you don't really understand what Penguin and I've been saying started with you and Midnight Pete.

I mean I don't mind continuing our conversation but it does seem that we're both starting to repeat ourselves.

No, I think it's pretty clear that you and the other theists on the thread aren't going to understand what I'm saying, so it's probably pointless to continue.

 

[Magic Man]

I grew up in Washington state and my parents are both LDS. As were my grandparents on both sides. And their parents. And possibly their parents.

Amazing how that works, huh?

 

[tomato1236]

Amazing how that works, huh?

Yes, it has been rather amazing. I agree.

 

[Katzpur]

I figured that when the sarcastic responses that show you don't really understand what Penguin and I've been saying started with you and Midnight Pete.

I'm not sure what responses you're referring to, but I don't think I've been particularly sarcastic. No more so than anybody else, at least. (You may not have seen your "Amazing how it works, huh?" comment as sarcastic, for instance. To me, it was everybit as sarcastic as anything I've said.)

No, I think it's pretty clear that you and the other theists on the thread aren't going to understand what I'm saying, so it's probably pointless to continue.

Yes, I feel the same way. I'm sure you're really trying to explain your position so that we can understand, but I am too. It appears that we're just talking past each other.

 

[tomato1236]

This doesn't follow. You'd have to talk to atheist parents and observe them. Do they actually bring their children to a special place once a week to chant special poems and sing songs about how there is no God? Do they tell them that their fate in the next life depends on whether they don't believe? In short, do they actually indoctrinate them, or not?

I'm pretty sure Katzpur has you on ignore. Are you responding to her posts for your own benefit or the general betterment of the universe?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now I'm curious. Who fits that description in your view?

I'm sure there's the odd bitter, atheist crank sitting in a shack somewhere planning an atheist theocracy (atheocracy?), but I can't think of any person currently in the public eye who would qualify as an "atheist mullah".

 

[Autodidact]

I grew up in Washington state and my parents are both LDS. As were my grandparents on both sides. And their parents. And possibly their parents.

And you don't think there's any causal connection between these facts and the fact that you're LDS today?

 

[Autodidact]

I'm pretty sure Katzpur has you on ignore. Are you responding to her posts for your own benefit or the general betterment of the universe?

The latter. She has me on ignore, not vice versa. If she doesn't want to respond to my posts, that's her prerogative.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not sure what responses you're referring to, but I don't think I've been particularly sarcastic. No more so than anybody else, at least. (You may not have seen your "Amazing how it works, huh?" comment as sarcastic, for instance. To me, it was everybit as sarcastic as anything I've said.)

Oh, yes, that was a sarcastic response, but he's already shown that he has no desire to actually discuss things, and it was after this thread was already devolving into nothing but sarcasm. An example of your sarcasm was:

Your conscience? LOL! I'm afraid not, tomato. Your parents had so successfully indoctrinated you that you were not able to make any other decision except to go to church. And all these years later, you still haven't figured that out. You still think you actually had a choice.

Yes, I feel the same way. I'm sure you're really trying to explain your position so that we can understand, but I am too. It appears that we're just talking past each other.

No, I understand your position. I'm trying to point out that your position involves a misunderstanding of my position and the position of many atheists.

 

[tomato1236]

And you don't think there's any causal connection between these facts and the fact that you're LDS today?

You've asked me this in at least three threads now. I answered it in full the first time. It's a little demotivating to know that you don't remember things like this. You must not have any actual interest in my responses.

 

[tomato1236]

The latter. She has me on ignore, not vice versa. If she doesn't want to respond to my posts, that's her prerogative.

I see. According to my sources, it's Britney Spears' prerogative. Perhaps you should check your facts.

 

[Magic Man]

You've asked me this in at least three threads now. I answered it in full the first time. It's a little demotivating to know that you don't remember things like this. You must not have any actual interest in my responses.

I'm betting it's more because you've never answered it sufficiently. Judging by your responses in this thread, I think it likely that you've at best responded to the question with your stock opinion that isn't going to change because you're not willing to discuss it, and she's tried to get you to discuss it in depth because there are problems with it.

 

[tomato1236]

Oh, yes, that was a sarcastic response, but he's already shown that he has no desire to actually discuss things, and it was after this thread was already devolving into nothing but sarcasm. An example of your sarcasm was:

True...I have demonstrated that I don't want to debate with you.

Although our prophet Gordon B Hinckley taught us to avoid sarcasm in our marriages and other relationships, many of us Marmons still have difficulty giving up our long-cherished sense of sarcastic humor. It can be such a pleasure when more than one participant in the conversation understands it.

 

[Meow Mix]

True...I have demonstrated that I don't want to debate with you.

Although our prophet Gordon B Hinckley taught us to avoid sarcasm in our marriages and other relationships, many of us Marmons still have difficulty giving up our long-cherished sense of sarcastic humor. It can be such a pleasure when more than one participant in the conversation understands it.

Wait, no sarcasm in marriages?

Oh man, Alicia and I would annihilate one another if we couldn't get our issues out with sarcastic quips and a kiss on the cheek.