Who's doing the brainwashing?

[tomato1236]

Wait, no sarcasm in marriages?

Oh man, Alicia and I would annihilate one another if we couldn't get our issues out with sarcastic quips and a kiss on the cheek.

Yeah. In my experience it can be terrific. My family was always pretty sarcastic with each other, and it was fine. In marriage, however, it can sometimes be deeply cutting and damaging. I never use it for that purpose, but because I'm sometimes sarcastic about benign things, my wife sometimes wonders if I'm being sarcastic regardless of the subject. I'm not the kind of person that laughs at my own jokes, so I can see where she would have a hard time. Anyway, her skin is getting thicker, or she's getting to know me better. I have seen couples that use sarcasm as a way to really cut their spouse to get their way or make a point and it's an ugly thing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This doesn't follow. You'd have to talk to atheist parents and observe them. Do they actually bring their children to a special place once a week to chant special poems and sing songs about how there is no God? Do they tell them that their fate in the next life depends on whether they don't believe? In short, do they actually indoctrinate them, or not?

Actually, I think that's a really good point.

I haven't been to every religion or denomination's worship services, but I did find the recitation of the Apostle's Creed in Catholic mass to be pretty freaky and way too close to brainwashing or group-think for my liking.

... and this is a common practice in a mainstream denomination.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True...I have demonstrated that I don't want to debate with you.

Although our prophet Gordon B Hinckley taught us to avoid sarcasm in our marriages and other relationships, many of us Marmons still have difficulty giving up our long-cherished sense of sarcastic humor. It can be such a pleasure when more than one participant in the conversation understands it.

Marmons?

 

[tomato1236]

Marmons?

Yeah, the dag nab, gul dern kind.

 

[Katzpur]

Oh, yes, that was a sarcastic response, but he's already shown that he has no desire to actually discuss things, and it was after this thread was already devolving into nothing but sarcasm. An example of your sarcasm was:

Okay, so we're both guilty. I actually try to respond to people whose perspective is different from mine with civility. I'm sorry you don't think I did. My response to tomato was definitely sarcastic. I guess I'm getting mean in my old age. I don't want to be that way. I apologize.

No, I understand your position. I'm trying to point out that your position involves a misunderstanding of my position and the position of many atheists.

Perhaps, but I'm not trying to lump all atheists together. What I've said from the beginning was directed only at those atheists who do hold the position I described. It wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry you thought it was.

 

[Magic Man]

True...I have demonstrated that I don't want to debate with you.

Yup, you've made it clear you don't want to debate certain things with anyone.

Although our prophet Gordon B Hinckley taught us to avoid sarcasm in our marriages and other relationships, many of us Marmons still have difficulty giving up our long-cherished sense of sarcastic humor. It can be such a pleasure when more than one participant in the conversation understands it.

Oh, sarcasm can be great. It can also demonstrate that any real discussion is over.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, I think that's a really good point.

I haven't been to every religion or denomination's worship services, but I did find the recitation of the Apostle's Creed in Catholic mass to be pretty freaky and way too close to brainwashing or group-think for my liking.

... and this is a common practice in a mainstream denomination.

There are a lot of other ways to indoctrinate people than by having them recite creeds, etc. I try to imagine certain atheists who consistently ridicule theists online as trying to objectively discuss a belief in God with their children, and I simply cannot do it. I picture the following scenario, as as example. Child comes home from school and mentions a comment a classmate made about God at recess. He asks his parent a question related to that comment. Would I expect the parent (based on how I see he or she behave here on RF) to say, "Well, I believe Susie is a Catholic and I'm pretty sure she believes such and such. I don't believe that myself because..."? Or, judging from the comments I've seen directed towards me and other theists, would I expect he or she to say something more along the lines of, "Well, some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster and unicorns and leprechuns, honey. Aren't you glad you're not that stupid?" Please understand, Penguin, that I'm not saying all atheists are that way. I'm saying that the ones who say things like that to us theists would probably say pretty much the same thing to their kids. It is any less indoctrination than reciting a creed?

 

[tomato1236]

I'm betting it's more because you've never answered it sufficiently. Judging by your responses in this thread, I think it likely that you've at best responded to the question with your stock opinion that isn't going to change because you're not willing to discuss it, and she's tried to get you to discuss it in depth because there are problems with it.

Prophets--quality control. Especially for Muslims, LDS

I believe my response was on page 4 or 5.

 

[Magic Man]

Okay, so we're both guilty. I actually try to respond to people whose perspective is different from mine with civility. I'm sorry you don't think I did. My response to tomato was definitely sarcastic. I guess I'm getting mean in my old age. I don't want to be that way. I apologize.

No need to apologize. I know you generally respond with civility. I'm just saying at a certain point it becomes obvious that having a perspective understood is highly unlikely.

Perhaps, but I'm not trying to lump all atheists together. What I've said from the beginning was directed only at those atheists who do hold the position I described. It wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry you thought it was.

You've made a few different points. Are you sure the people the OP was directed at actually claim what the OP claims?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are a lot of other ways to indoctrinate people than by having them recite creeds, etc. I try to imagine certain atheists who consistently ridicule theists online as trying to objectively discuss a belief in God with their children, and I simply cannot do it. I picture the following scenario, as as example. Child comes home from school and mentions a comment a classmate made about God at recess. He asks his parent a question related to that comment. Would I expect the parent (based on how I see he or she behave here on RF) to say, "Well, I believe Susie is a Catholic and I'm pretty sure she believes such and such. I don't believe that myself because..."? Or, judging from the comments I've seen directed towards me and other theists, would I expect he or she to say something more along the lines of, "Well, some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster and unicorns and leprechuns, honey. Aren't you glad you're not that stupid?" Please understand, Penguin, that I'm not saying all atheists are that way. I'm saying that the ones who say things like that to us theists would probably say pretty much the same thing to their kids. It is any less indoctrination than reciting a creed?

I think saying something like that to a child probably would constitute indoctrination, especially if it was done on a regular basis. However, I do think that people tend to be harsher online than they are in real life.

 

[Magic Man]

Prophets--quality control. Especially for Muslims, LDS

I believe my response was on page 4 or 5.

Thanks, and yes, it certainly does confirm my suspicions. You didn't actually answer the question there. You basically just repeated that people raised in X religion usually end up in X religion as an adult.

 

[Katzpur]

Are you sure the people the OP was directed at actually claim what the OP claims?

In my opinion, yes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You've made a few different points. Are you sure the people the OP was directed at actually claim what the OP claims?

I got the impression that the OP was aimed at me. I think that indoctrination is common in religion... not universal, but common, and a big part of why so many people are religious today. Still, I have absolutely no intention of indoctrinating anyone into atheism.

 

[tomato1236]

Thanks, and yes, it certainly does confirm my suspicions. You didn't actually answer the question there. You basically just repeated that people raised in X religion usually end up in X religion as an adult.

Oh. What a fool I am. I thought I did answer the question. I really need to work on this.

 

[Katzpur]

I think saying something like that to a child probably would constitute indoctrination, especially if it was done on a regular basis. However, I do think that people tend to be harsher online than they are in real life.

Let's hope so but I'm not so sure. I think we adults give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve when it comes to masking our true feelings in front of our children. Kids are extremely observant. Even when we're not talking to them, they overhear our conversations with other people and pick up more than we realize. They come to know how we feel about certain groups of people without our ever being aware of it. Maybe that even constitutes indoctrination. Particularly if we have extremely negative feelings towards a particular group, our kids figure those feelings are justified. They often don't really have any means of hearing any other point of view. If someone despises Muslims or Mormons or African Americans or Republicans or Mexicans, you can bet their kids do too, even if the parent has never made it a point to actually discuss their opinions with the child.

 

[Autodidact]

Marmons?

LDS marmots?

 

[Autodidact]

You've asked me this in at least three threads now. I answered it in full the first time. It's a little demotivating to know that you don't remember things like this. You must not have any actual interest in my responses.

Not all of our readers here had the benefit of your response.

 

[Autodidact]

There are a lot of other ways to indoctrinate people than by having them recite creeds, etc. I try to imagine certain atheists who consistently ridicule theists online as trying to objectively discuss a belief in God with their children, and I simply cannot do it. I picture the following scenario, as as example. Child comes home from school and mentions a comment a classmate made about God at recess. He asks his parent a question related to that comment. Would I expect the parent (based on how I see he or she behave here on RF) to say, "Well, I believe Susie is a Catholic and I'm pretty sure she believes such and such. I don't believe that myself because..."? Or, judging from the comments I've seen directed towards me and other theists, would I expect he or she to say something more along the lines of, "Well, some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster and unicorns and leprechuns, honey. Aren't you glad you're not that stupid?" Please understand, Penguin, that I'm not saying all atheists are that way. I'm saying that the ones who say things like that to us theists would probably say pretty much the same thing to their kids. It is any less indoctrination than reciting a creed?

I take my responsibilities and values as a parent seriously. I don't believe in indoctrinating children into religious belief or disbelief. Eventually they ask me if I believe in God. I answer honestly that I don't. I also tell them it's up to each person to figure out for themselves. I believe this approach is fairly common among atheists, and extremely rare among theists, although not unheard of. The two cases are not symmetrical.

 

[Autodidact]

There are a lot of other ways to indoctrinate people than by having them recite creeds, etc. I try to imagine certain atheists who consistently ridicule theists online as trying to objectively discuss a belief in God with their children, and I simply cannot do it. I picture the following scenario, as as example. Child comes home from school and mentions a comment a classmate made about God at recess. He asks his parent a question related to that comment. Would I expect the parent (based on how I see he or she behave here on RF) to say, "Well, I believe Susie is a Catholic and I'm pretty sure she believes such and such. I don't believe that myself because..."? Or, judging from the comments I've seen directed towards me and other theists, would I expect he or she to say something more along the lines of, "Well, some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster and unicorns and leprechuns, honey. Aren't you glad you're not that stupid?" Please understand, Penguin, that I'm not saying all atheists are that way. I'm saying that the ones who say things like that to us theists would probably say pretty much the same thing to their kids. It is any less indoctrination than reciting a creed?

1. Have you asked atheists what they do?
2. Have you observed them?
Or are you just assuming, based on pure prejudice?

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I have to agree.

People will always try to make an excuse for their own behaviour though, I guess.



Not always true.

For example, my children have shown totemistic tendencies and have have a tendency for anthromorphism.

Children are hard-wired for these two things. Anthropomorphism is one way to learn about the world around you. Children learn by pretending and it helps them connect with their surroundings and feel a kinship with other creatures. I was actually reading about this in my Ecopsychology book I was reading today. Interesting.