Who's doing the brainwashing?

[Katzpur]

Children are hard-wired for these two things.

I would like to explore this further. Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean?

 

[Magic Man]

I got the impression that the OP was aimed at me. I think that indoctrination is common in religion... not universal, but common, and a big part of why so many people are religious today. Still, I have absolutely no intention of indoctrinating anyone into atheism.

Yes, we're agreed on all points.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh. What a fool I am. I thought I did answer the question. I really need to work on this.

I wouldn't say you're a fool, but it's hard for me to believe you think that response actually answered Auto's question.

 

[Magic Man]

Let's hope so but I'm not so sure. I think we adults give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve when it comes to masking our true feelings in front of our children. Kids are extremely observant. Even when we're not talking to them, they overhear our conversations with other people and pick up more than we realize. They come to know how we feel about certain groups of people without our ever being aware of it. Maybe that even constitutes indoctrination. Particularly if we have extremely negative feelings towards a particular group, our kids figure those feelings are justified. They often don't really have any means of hearing any other point of view. If someone despises Muslims or Mormons or African Americans or Republicans or Mexicans, you can bet their kids do too, even if the parent has never made it a point to actually discuss their opinions with the child.

Again, there's a difference between your child picking up on things that you don't make plainly obvious and you specifically telling your kids something. Taking your child to church every week and telling them that God exists isn't a case of them just picking stuff up from you. Having your kids pick up on your feelings about certain things through indirect means is not indoctrination, but it's also not how most Christians' children learn about Christianity.

 

[Gloone]

Some people let their kids decide for themselves.

Ya my parents did that for me and it was hell the entire way. I try to remind them at least once a day how much they suck. But I still have a good relationship with them.

 

[tomato1236]

I wouldn't say you're a fool, but it's hard for me to believe you think that response actually answered Auto's question.

That was one of the first posts I ever made on RF, and it was shortly thereafter that I learned that no matter what responses I give, it will never "answer" Auto's questions.

 

[Renji]

A more good question to ask would be: Who's doing the "brainwash thing" better?

 

[ChristineES]

At the age of 15, my son started saying this pretty much every Sunday, but when given the choice to stay home or go, he'd stay home. My husband and I got tired of the weekly arguments so we finally asked our bishop, "Do we force the issue or just let it go?" A lot of people would probably guess that the bishop said, "As long as he is living under your roof, he should have to attend church with your family." Instead, his answer was, "Let it go. Let it be his choice." We did and he stopped going for good. Today, he is totally non-religious, but we have an absolutely fantastic relationship with him. I guess we did pretty well at indoctrinating him to believe in God. We just fell short when it came to indoctrinating him to be a practicing Latter-day Saint.

If you would have forced him to go with you, he may have resented it later. I am doing a pretty lousy job of indoctrinating my 15-year-old son, too. He changes his mind about once a week about what he believes. I am not sure he believes in any of it. He has to follow his own path.

 

[ChristineES]

That was one of the first posts I ever made on RF, and it was shortly thereafter that I learned that no matter what responses I give, it will never "answer" Auto's questions.

I get the "You didn't answer my question" statement every so often. I usually think "Well, I thought I answered it".

 

[Magic Man]

That was one of the first posts I ever made on RF, and it was shortly thereafter that I learned that no matter what responses I give, it will never "answer" Auto's questions.

It seems you learned incorrectly then. Granted, giving responses that don't actually answer the question won't satisfy her, but then that won't satisfy most people. All you have to do is actually answer the question next time.

 

[ninerbuff]

My wife is catholic and my daughter (only 6) is too young to really understand religion yet. Practically my whole family is catholic, I'm really the only Atheist. I would leave "belief" up to the individual. If my daughter decides to be catholic, then that's her decision. If she asks me why I'm an Atheist, I will tell her why I feel that way, but wouldn't try to "brainwash" her to becoming one. I'd let her try to figure out on her own what belief she wants to follow.

 

[Katzpur]

Again, there's a difference between your child picking up on things that you don't make plainly obvious and you specifically telling your kids something. Taking your child to church every week and telling them that God exists isn't a case of them just picking stuff up from you. Having your kids pick up on your feelings about certain things through indirect means is not indoctrination, but it's also not how most Christians' children learn about Christianity.

There's a difference in the methodology, but I don't believe there's much difference in the results. Indoctrination can be pretty subtle.

 

[Magic Man]

There's a difference in the methodology, but I don't believe there's much difference in the results.

Really? Why not?

Indoctrination can be pretty subtle.

Yes, it can. That's part of the point. Many theists may not consider what they do to be indoctrination, but many times it is.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes, it can. That's part of the point. Many theists may not consider what they do to be indoctrination, but many times it is.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2220878-post36.html

"I don't necessarily have a problem with indoctrination. There can be a point where it reaches abuse, but it need not be so. I have no problem with someone teaching their child their values and beliefs."

 

[Magic Man]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2220878-post36.html

"I don't necessarily have a problem with indoctrination. There can be a point where it reaches abuse, but it need not be so. I have no problem with someone teaching their child their values and beliefs."

I don't understand. Are you agreeing with him, or was there another reason for posting that?

 

[Katzpur]

Really? Why not?

Here was your original statement, mball:

Again, there's a difference between your child picking up on things that you don't make plainly obvious and you specifically telling your kids something. Taking your child to church every week and telling them that God exists isn't a case of them just picking stuff up from you. Having your kids pick up on your feelings about certain things through indirect means is not indoctrination, but it's also not how most Christians' children learn about Christianity.

Your next statement was:

That's part of the point. Many theists may not consider what they do to be indoctrination, but many times it is.

Okay, at this point, I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you're saying. If a child frequently hears his parents discussing God in a positive way, (e.g. mentioning how God has blessed the family, talking about how their prayers have been answered, discussing their faith in Him, etc.) but is never taken to church and never spoken to directly about the parents' beliefs, and if, under those circumstances, that child develops similar beliefs, was he or was he not indoctrinated?

 

[Magic Man]

Here was your original statement, mball:

Again, there's a difference between your child picking up on things that you don't make plainly obvious and you specifically telling your kids something. Taking your child to church every week and telling them that God exists isn't a case of them just picking stuff up from you. Having your kids pick up on your feelings about certain things through indirect means is not indoctrination, but it's also not how most Christians' children learn about Christianity.

Your next statement was:

That's part of the point. Many theists may not consider what they do to be indoctrination, but many times it is.

Okay, at this point, I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you're saying. If a child frequently hears his parents discussing God in a positive way, (e.g. mentioning how God has blessed the family, talking about how their prayers have been answered, discussing their faith in Him, etc.) but is never taken to church and never spoken to directly about the parents' beliefs, and if, under those circumstances, that child develops similar beliefs, was he or was he not indoctrinated?

What I'm saying is that a lot of theist parents indoctrinate their children without realizing that's what they're doing. I'm also saying just having your child learn about your religion by hearing you speak to others about it isn't indoctrination, but that's not what most theists do.

You said you don't think there's a difference in results when someone takes their kid to church and teaches them directly that God is real and the bible is the truth rather than just leaves the kid alone about, but the kid hears them talk about it sometimes anyway. I was wondering why you think the results would generally be the same. I would think there would be a vast difference in the results.

As for your example here, that doesn't sound like indoctrination.

 

[Katzpur]

What I'm saying is that a lot of theist parents indoctrinate their children without realizing that's what they're doing. I'm also saying just having your child learn about your religion by hearing you speak to others about it isn't indoctrination, but that's not what most theists do.

I agree that it's not what most theists do, but when does it become indoctrination? As soon as you involve the child in any way? Are theists supposed to make a conscious effort not to convey their feelings about God to their children? Should atheists be held to the same standard?

You said you don't think there's a difference in results when someone takes their kid to church and teaches them directly that God is real and the bible is the truth rather than just leaves the kid alone about, but the kid hears them talk about it sometimes anyway. I was wondering why you think the results would generally be the same. I would think there would be a vast difference in the results.

I guess I just give kids more credit for picking up on their parents' beliefs and attitudes than you do. Also, I believe it was you who said that my nephew (raised by atheist parents) probably came to believe in God because he was influenced by society. I said that was not the case, but if it was, did society indoctrinate him in some way?

As for your example here, that doesn't sound like indoctrination.

Suppose it were on a different subject. Suppose the parents were members of the KKK and the clan's hateful rhetoric was thrown about constantly in the child's presence. Would that be indoctrination?

Are you at least willing to agree with me that it's not a black and white issue, that there are shades of gray as to what indoctrination is and isn't, and that both theists and atheists can be guilty of indoctrinating their kids in more subtle ways.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, at this point, I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you're saying. If a child frequently hears his parents discussing God in a positive way, (e.g. mentioning how God has blessed the family, talking about how their prayers have been answered, discussing their faith in Him, etc.) but is never taken to church and never spoken to directly about the parents' beliefs, and if, under those circumstances, that child develops similar beliefs, was he or was he not indoctrinated?

He's been influenced, but probably not indoctrinated.

What more concerns me are practices like First Communion in the Catholic Church (and other denominations that practice similar things). IMO, here's the implicit message:

You can't eat this wafer unless you accept God, accept that the Catholic Church is His church, and accept that God is present in the wafer. Oh... and by the way, all of your friends are going to be eating their wafer, and it's really important to your whole family that you eat yours. If you don't do it, or if you don't really mean it when you do it, you'll be an outcast at school and you'll let down your parents, your grandparents, and your brothers and sisters... not to mention God. Jesus really wants you to do this, and you'll break his heart if you don't. Now... you want to eat the wafer, right?

And this is what's being expressed to a 7- or 8-year-old. I think that's indoctrination. And I don't think that "believer's baptism" or Confirmation at the age of 13 or 14 is all that much better.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree that it's not what most theists do, but when does it become indoctrination? As soon as you involve the child in any way? Are theists supposed to make a conscious effort not to convey their feelings about God to their children? Should atheists be held to the same standard?

It becomes indoctrination when you directly tell the child that God exists or involve him in the religion in such a way as to express that to him, like taking him to worship. It wouldn't be a bad idea for them to make a conscious effort to not convey their feelings about God to their children, unless the child specifically asks. Yes, atheists should be held to the same standard.

I guess I just give kids more credit for picking up on their parents' beliefs and attitudes than you do.

No, you don't. I understand how much kids pick up on. But it still makes a big difference to a kid whether the parent makes a point of telling them it's the truth or just leaves them alone to figure it out for themselves.

Also, I believe it was you who said that my nephew (raised by atheist parents) probably came to believe in God because he was influenced by society. I said that was not the case, but if it was, did society indoctrinate him in some way?

Actually, that's a good question. I guess you could make a case for American society indoctrinating kids into God-belief. Right now I'd just say society influenced him.

Suppose it were on a different subject. Suppose the parents were members of the KKK and the clan's hateful rhetoric was thrown about constantly in the child's presence. Would that be indoctrination?

Don't know. How is it being done?

Are you at least willing to agree with me that it's not a black and white issue, that there are shades of gray as to what indoctrination is and isn't, and that both theists and atheists can be guilty of indoctrinating their kids in more subtle ways.

Sure, but where does that get us?