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Who's doing the brainwashing?

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
About this "being born an atheist" stuff: We are not born knowing any language, we are not born how to eat solid foods, we are not born knowing how to walk or even crawl, we are born as self-centered and selfish. Do you think it is brainwashing to teach your child common courtesy and how to share? Do you think learning the language we speak is brainwashing? (they only learn the one spoken to them, you know) Do you think it is even possible for our children NOT to learn what we believe. Are they supposed to plug their ears whenever we talk about our faith?
It is getting pretty scary out there when we are told we are brainwashing our children just by them learning our faith.
GET REAL, GUYS.

Respectfully, I think you misunderstand, Christine. First of all, no one in here said you were brainwashing your children by having them hear you talk about your religion. It is indoctrination to teach your children that your religion is true and right to the exclusion of others. It is entirely possible to be a theist parents and not indoctrinate your children, even though they'll hear you talk about your religion at times. But the fact is most theist parents don't just stop at that. Generally they take their kids to worship with them, and they teach them all the truths of their religion.

Teaching kids common courtesy and manners is quite different from teaching them your religion. Common courtesy and manners are a way of respecting others, so all you're doing is teaching them to respect others with their behavior. Teaching them your religion is telling them "This belief is the truth".
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You can. Do you consider it a coincidence that most children in Iran end up Muslim and most children in America end up Christian? How else would you explain that fact?
I think you missed my point. I readily concede that if I had been born in Iran, I'd probably be a Muslim today. I make a distinction, which you may not, between having a conviction that there is some kind of a power beyond what you can explain and produce proof of and accepting the tenets of a specific religion. I don't think you "give" someone a belief in a Higher Power. You "give" them information, doctrinal teachings if you will. You might even give them information pertaining to what they are "supposed to" believe about this Higher Power. But the belief in its existance is different. Who "gave" my nephew his belief?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Yes, but giving them objective information on something that they are ultimately going to have to make a subjective decision on is quite a challenge. I don't know how old your kids are, but if you haven't started in on your project to educate them, you'll probably discover this at some point.

I don't have kids yet. The hope is to start that next year. I don't see why giving them objective information on the topic is a challenge. I just tell them some basics about what different people believe.

There's no sudden hostility. How many times do you think I should have to hear people use the word "brainwashed" to describe how people come to believe in God before I react by starting a thread on the subject. If you don't think it happens all that often, do a search on "brainwash."

It just seemed sudden to me. Has there been a thread or something recently? It seemed like it came out of nowhere, but if it was part of a thread or threads recently, that would make sense. "Brainwashed" isn't the correct word, but "indoctrinated" usually is.

I agree that most children brought up Christian end up Christian, most brought up Muslim end up Muslim. What you left out was that most children brought up atheist end up atheist. If indoctrination exists in one case, it exists in the other as well. And in each case, the parents congratulate themselves on having succeeded in effectively "taught" their children.

It can exist in the case of atheist parents. I mentioned that in my first post. Just as it's possible for theist parents not to indoctrinate their kids. However, without any scientific research to back it up, it seems to me that theist parents indoctrinate their kids more often than atheist ones. It's probably true that kids brought up atheists end up atheists the majority of the time. But that doesn't mean it's because of indoctrination. It could just be the lack of emphasis on religion and god means they have no compunction to believe, and they don't get involved later on.

In your confusion over what you perceive as hostility on my part, you may have overlooked the fact that my OP does not say that people who teach their children nothing whatsoever about God have brainwashed them. It is the atheists who constantly use the word "brainwashing" my remarks were directed to. If you think that most of the people who insist on ridiculing believers every time they post are going to remain silent on the topic of God where their kids are concerned, I think you've been brainwashed! If the shoe doesn't fit, mball, I'm not asking you to try to cram your foot into it.

Again, is this directly because of some comments from recently on here? If so, that would be good info. As it is, you made it very general. If there are specific people you had in mind for this to be directed towards, that could have helped clear up some confusion. Out of curiosity, would you mind directing me to an example of one of these people ridiculing believers? I know it happens; I just want to be on the same page.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Teaching kids common courtesy and manners is quite different from teaching them your religion. Common courtesy and manners are a way of respecting others, so all you're doing is teaching them to respect others with their behavior. Teaching them your religion is telling them "This belief is the truth".

I think I know where you are coming from. But there is one thing: Theists believe that they are teaching their children the truth. If we didn't believe it to be true, we wouldn't believe it ourselves. My children all went in different paths: One is autistic, the next one is what I can only describe as an agnostic, and my youngest, my daughter, is a Christian and a different denomination than I am and my husband, too (my husband and I have two different denominations).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree that most children brought up Christian end up Christian, most brought up Muslim end up Muslim. What you left out was that most children brought up atheist end up atheist. If indoctrination exists in one case, it exists in the other as well.
Well, no. That's the whole point. Simply being an atheist doesn't mean that you'll "bring your children up atheist". It does seem to me that in the absence of any religious upbringing (either for or against), people do tend to end up atheists.

In my experience, there's a strong tendency for religious people to want to raise their children in their own particular religion... and I think the responses from religious people in this thread are generally in line with this. In fact, my wife had to promise to "raise our children in the faith" before we could be married in a Catholic church. However, IMO, there's much less tendency for atheists to "raise their kids atheist".

I'm not just an atheist; I also consider myself a freethinker. In that spirit, it goes completely against what I believe to hand my children a ready-made set of beliefs, whether for or against the existence of God. I'd venture to say that most other freethinkers (who are a large proportion of atheists) feel the same way.

And in each case, the parents congratulate themselves on having succeeded in effectively "taught" their children.
As I said before, I'm not going to teach my children to be atheists. I'm going to do things like teach them the value of logic, reason, critical thinking and free inquiry. I suspect that this may lead them to be atheists because that's what it did for me, but I'm entirely focused on the process, not the end result.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Do you think it is even possible for our children NOT to learn what we believe. Are they supposed to plug their ears whenever we talk about our faith? It is getting pretty scary out there when we are told we are brainwashing our children just by them learning our faith. GET REAL, GUYS.
I'm glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. Maybe we're only supposed to talk about our faith in hushed tones after the kids are fast asleep.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I think you missed my point. I readily concede that if I had been born in Iran, I'd probably be a Muslim today. I make a distinction, which you may not, between having a conviction that there is some kind of a power beyond what you can explain and produce proof of and accepting the tenets of a specific religion. I don't think you "give" someone a belief in a Higher Power. You "give" them information, doctrinal teachings if you will. You might even give them information pertaining to what they are "supposed to" believe about this Higher Power. But the belief in its existance is different. Who "gave" my nephew his belief?

I'd say society gave your nephew that belief. My point is that most parents do more than just give information. This is why I brought up the Iran example. You don't get the bast majority of people ending up members of their parents' religion when the parents just give them information. For that result, it takes indoctrination. That is not to say that all theist parents indoctrinate their kids.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I think I know where you are coming from. But there is one thing: Theists believe that they are teaching their children the truth. If we didn't believe it to be true, we wouldn't believe it ourselves. My children all went in different paths: One is autistic, the next one is what I can only describe as an agnostic, and my youngest, my daughter, is a Christian and a different denomination than I am and my husband, too (my husband and I have two different denominations).

I understand why some people do it, but that doesn't mean it's not indoctrination.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
As I said before, I'm not going to teach my children to be atheists. I'm going to do things like teach them the value of logic, reason, critical thinking and free inquiry. I suspect that this may lead them to be atheists because that's what it did for me, but I'm entirely focused on the process, not the end result.

This last part made me smile. I was raised by my mother, who was an atheist in my early childhood. I was an agnostic most of my childhood and teen years. At 13, I began to question everything around me- including my faith. But I became a Follower of Jesus at nearly 18. She taught in much the same you would have, 9-10ths. That is why it made me smile.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. Maybe we're only supposed to talk about our faith in hushed tones after the kids are fast asleep.
I'm not going to tell you how to raise your kids, but I do think that what you jokingly describe is a valid approach.

As I touched on before, my Dad never gave any hint that he was an atheist until his funeral... when I was almost 30. My Mom's a Baptist, but she never pushed religion on me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach.

If you think that some other approach was better for raising your kids, fine. However, don't be so quick to give a blanket dismissal of an approach that others have taken (and IMO with good success... though I'm probably biased).
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
About this "being born an atheist" stuff: We are not born knowing any language, we are not born how to eat solid foods, we are not born knowing how to walk or even crawl, we are born as self-centered and selfish. Do you think it is brainwashing to teach your child common courtesy and how to share? Do you think learning the language we speak is brainwashing? (they only learn the one spoken to them, you know) Do you think it is even possible for our children NOT to learn what we believe. Are they supposed to plug their ears whenever we talk about our faith?
It is getting pretty scary out there when we are told we are brainwashing our children just by them learning our faith.
GET REAL, GUYS.

This is basically what I was saying.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This last part made me smile. I was raised by my mother, who was an atheist in my early childhood. I was an agnostic most of my childhood and teen years. At 13, I began to question everything around me- including my faith. But I became a Follower of Jesus at nearly 18. She taught in much the same you would have, 9-10ths. That is why it made me smile.
And if that happens with my kids, fine. I won't ask them to be atheists; I just want them to think through their beliefs and come to them honestly.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Well, no. That's the whole point. Simply being an atheist doesn't mean that you'll "bring your children up atheist". It does seem to me that in the absence of any religious upbringing (either for or against), people do tend to end up atheists.

In my experience, there's a strong tendency for religious people to want to raise their children in their own particular religion... and I think the responses from religious people in this thread are generally in line with this. In fact, my wife had to promise to "raise our children in the faith" before we could be married in a Catholic church. However, IMO, there's much less tendency for atheists to "raise their kids atheist".

I'm not just an atheist; I also consider myself a freethinker. In that spirit, it goes completely against what I believe to hand my children a ready-made set of beliefs, whether for or against the existence of God. I'd venture to say that most other freethinkers (who are a large proportion of atheists) feel the same way.


As I said before, I'm not going to teach my children to be atheists. I'm going to do things like teach them the value of logic, reason, critical thinking and free inquiry. I suspect that this may lead them to be atheists because that's what it did for me, but I'm entirely focused on the process, not the end result.

Richard Dawkins says that teaching religion to children is child abuse. Flat-out, unequivocally. How many any atheists here are immersing their kids in religion? How many atheists are making sure their kids remain free from religious influences? Please be truthful.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Respectfully, I think you misunderstand, Christine. First of all, no one in here said you were brainwashing your children by having them hear you talk about your religion.
Maybe you haven't read all of the posts. ;)

Teaching them your religion is telling them "This belief is the truth".
There is a very fine line between teaching your kids your religion and teaching them that "this belief is the truth." For the record, I can't remember ever telling my kids "this belief is the truth." But seriously, would I even have taken them to church with me if I didn't think it was the truth? By practicing my religion, I am conveying to my children that it's meaningful to me. By volunteering in animal rights causes, I am telling my children that I believe this is important. By voting, I'm telling them I see this as my responsibility as a citizen of my country and community. Speaking of politics, my views are pretty moderate and I seldom get awfully worked up over any candidate or proposition. In the last election, I voted for Obama. Let's say, though, that I was a die-hard, straight ticket Democrat. My kids (they're actually grown now, but assuming they were still at home) would undoubtedly have overheard me voicing my opinions on party politics. Just to keep things objective, should I make sure they get plenty of Fox News and hear a few speeches from some Tea Party folks, and then try to be careful to say nothing more than, "Well, that's how some people see it. I see it differently"? It sounds like a nice goal, but how realistic is it?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Richard Dawkins says that teaching religion to children is child abuse. Flat-out, unequivocally. How many any atheists here are immersing their kids in religion? How many atheists are making sure their kids remain free from religious influences? Please be truthful.

I don't understand what you're getting at. What do those questions have to do with what Richard Dawkins thinks?
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I just had a thought right from left field. In addition to our children learning our faith just by observation of us, even if we don't actively teach it: What about teaching kids things we know aren't true- like Santa Claus? Then when they find out the truth: Most kids figure it out for themselves, but a few of them may become distraught. Could that considered a form of abuse?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Maybe you haven't read all of the posts. ;)

There is a very fine line between teaching your kids your religion and teaching them that "this belief is the truth." For the record, I can't remember ever telling my kids "this belief is the truth." But seriously, would I even have taken them to church with me if I didn't think it was the truth? By practicing my religion, I am conveying to my children that it's meaningful to me. By volunteering in animal rights causes, I am telling my children that I believe this is important. By voting, I'm telling them I see this as my responsibility as a citizen of my country and community. Speaking of politics, my views are pretty moderate and I seldom get awfully worked up over any candidate or proposition. In the last election, I voted for Obama. Let's say, though, that I was a die-hard, straight ticket Democrat. My kids (they're actually grown now, but assuming they were still at home) would undoubtedly have overheard me voicing my opinions on party politics. Just to keep things objective, should I make sure they get plenty of Fox News and hear a few speeches from some Tea Party folks, and then try to be careful to say nothing more than, "Well, that's how some people see it. I see it differently"? It sounds like a nice goal, but how realistic is it?
Quite realistic, IMO. My parents managed to pull it off.

I had no idea until I was well into my 20s how my parents voted. They taught me that it was important to vote, but they never, ever suggested to me who I should vote for.

I never thought it was that strange at the time, but apparently people have real problems with this approach... to the point of thinking that it's impossble. It's not; I've seen it firsthand.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Dawkins is a bit extreme.

I don't think it's right for a parent to hand their kids a holy book and say it's the truth and nothing but the truth, but I don't think religious instruction in general is child abuse.

If Alicia and I end up with children, I want to just teach them how to think (not WHAT to think). Then I'll let them partake in studies of whatever religious beliefs they want, and if they end up believing one of them then at least they were equipped to come to that decision through thought rather than just because some parent or pastor told them it was true.

And I'll support whatever decision they come to.
 
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