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Who's managing hell?

nPeace

Veteran Member
Maybe soul would be better word, but the idea comes from here:

A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”
Luke 16:20-31
A parable?
Why would you think a parable, would render everything else the Bible says void.

The parable does not say the spirit of the individuals went anywhere. Did you notice that?
The actual characters themselves were in these conditions.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Why do you think it is a parable?
We know it is a parable from what we read.
There are people though, who don't like the thought that it is a parable, and do not want to accept that, since it leaves them without a scripture to support their believe in torment in hellfire.
You may have observed, as I have, that whens asked to support their beliefs, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is give, but no other scriptures are offered.

You didn't answer my question though. I hope you do.
I will still answer your question in detail though, and I'll ask the question a little differently.

The parable does not say the spirit of the individuals went anywhere. I think that's one of the things we should notice.
So in that scripture there is no spirit; no soul. Neither are said to be in the parable.
So where does the idea that the living spirit is in hell come from?
It's not there in that scripture.

Here is my detailed answer to your question.
Starting with Matthew 13:1-16
1 On that day Jesus left the house and was sitting by the sea. 2 And such large crowds gathered to him that he went aboard a boat and sat down, and all the crowd was standing on the beach. 3Then he told them many things by illustrations, saying: “Look! A sower went out to sow. 4 As he was sowing, some seeds fell alongside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Others fell on rocky ground where there was not much soil, and they immediately sprang up because the soil was not deep. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them. 8 Still others fell on the fine soil, and they began to yield fruit, this one 100 times more, that one 60, the other 30. 9Let the one who has ears listen.” 10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. 12For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them. 16“However, happy are your eyes because they see and your ears because they hear.

So Jesus used illustrations purposely, and he explained the reason. His close disciples however, were privileged to get the explanation... at least when Jesus felt they were ready for it.

The scriptures tell us...
(Matthew 13:34, 35) 34All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, 35in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations; I will proclaim things hidden since the founding.”

In that same scripture Matthew 13, Jesus spoke many illustrations / parables.
Lukes account parallels Matthew's, as we know. So we can connect what Jesus says in both accounts... even though they are not written chronological order.

If we read Chapter 8 of Luke, we will find the account where he is teaching the crowds at the seaside.
(Luke 8:4, 5) 4 Now when a large crowd had gathered together with those who went to him from city to city, he spoke by means of an illustration: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing. . .

Notice whom Jesus explains to.
(Luke 8:9-11) 9 But his disciples asked him what this illustration meant. 10 He said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations so that, though looking, they may look in vain, and though hearing, they may not get the sense. 11 Now the illustration means this: . . .
Continued, next post...
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Why do you think it is a parable?
Luke 'travels' (not in person) with Jesus as he teaches on several occasions.
Jesus gives a series of illustrations, starting from Chapter 12 right through to Chapter 20... but that's quite a lot of reading, so we can summarize.
The summary is as short as possible, but lengthy, in order to show clearly the reality.

Illustrations / Parables
1. (Luke 12:16) With that he told them an illustration, saying: “The land of a rich man produced well.

2. (Luke 12:35, 36) 35 “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, 36 and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him.

Note. Peter knew Jesus was speaking parables, but he was not sure to whom Jesus was directing it.
(Luke 12:41) . . .Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?”

This is a point I was trying to explain to @Brian2, when I was trying to help him understand that when Jesus spoke of persons seeing Abraham in the kingdom, Jesus was speaking a parable.
To this day @Brian2 has not answered my question as to what door the people were knocking on - a door in heaven? That's one of the parables coming up.
This is important - realizing that Jesus taught by parables.​
3. (Luke 13:6) Then he went on to tell this illustration: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it but found none.

4. (Luke 13:18, 19) 18 So he went on to say: “What is the Kingdom of God like, and with what can I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard grain that a man took and planted in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of heaven nested in its branches.”

5. (Luke 13:20, 21) 20 And again he said: “With what can I compare the Kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”

6. (Luke 13:22-25) 22 And he traveled from city to city and from village to village, teaching and continuing on his journey to Jerusalem. 23 Now a man said to him: “Lord, are those being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able. 25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ . . .

7. (Luke 14:7, 8) 7 He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited.

8. (Luke 14:16, 17) 16 Jesus said to him: “A man was spreading a grand evening meal, and he invited many. 17 He sent his slave out at the hour of the evening meal to say to the invited ones, ‘Come, because everything is now ready.’

9. (Luke 14:25-29) 25 Now large crowds were traveling with him, and he turned and said to them: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his torture stake and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For example, who of you wanting to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, he might lay its foundation but not be able to finish it, and all the onlookers would start to ridicule him. . .

10. (Luke 14:34, 35) 34 “Salt, to be sure, is fine. But if the salt loses its strength, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is not suitable for soil or for manure. People throw it away. Let the one who has ears to listen, listen.”

11. (Luke 15:3, 4) 3 Then he told them this illustration, saying: 4 “What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it?

12. (Luke 15:8) “Or what woman who has ten drachma coins, if she loses one of the drachmas, does not light a lamp and sweep her house and search carefully until she finds it?

13. (Luke 15:11, 12) 11 Then he said: “A man had two sons. 12 And the younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the property that should come to me.’ So he divided his belongings between them.

14. (Luke 16:1, 2) 1 Then he also said to the disciples: “A rich man had a steward who was accused of handling his goods wastefully. 2 So he called him and said, ‘What is this I hear about you? Hand in the account of your stewardship, for you can no longer manage the house.. . .

15. (Luke 16:14-20) 14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 So he said to them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight. 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on, the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. 17 Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled. 18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. 19 “There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. 20 But a beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers

16. (Luke 17:6-7) 6 Then the Lord said: “If you had faith the size of a mustard grain, you would say to this black mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea!’ and it would obey you. 7 “Which one of you who has a slave plowing or shepherding would say to him when he comes in from the field, ‘Come here at once and dine at the table’?

17. (Luke 18:1, 2) 1 Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up, 2 saying: “In a certain city there was a judge who had no fear of God and no respect for man.

18. (Luke 18:9, 10) 9 He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

19. (Luke 19:11, 12) 11 While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. 12 So he said: “A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return.

20. (Luke 20:9) Then he began to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and leased it to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for a considerable time.​
So there we have the scriptures showing that Jesus is teaching by illustrations.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus included... being directed at the money-loving Pharisees.

We also know these are parables from their content... in some cases.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
We know it is a parable from what we read.
There are people though, who don't like the thought that it is a parable, and do not want to accept that, since it leaves them without a scripture to support their believe in torment in hellfire...

Usually, when Jesus is telling a parable, he says that he is doing so. In the case of Luke 16:20-31 I don't think he does that, which is why I don't think it is a parable. However, I think the point if the scripture is not torment in hellfire, i don't think it is speaking of that.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Usually, when Jesus is telling a parable, he says that he is doing so. In the case of Luke 16:20-31 I don't think he does that, which is why I don't think it is a parable.
Perhaps you didn't read all the verses, because that is not the case.
Consider Luke 12:35-36 Luke 13:22-25; Luke 14:16-17; Luke 15:11-12; Luke 16:1-2; Luke 16:14-20

However, I think the point if the scripture is not torment in hellfire, i don't think it is speaking of that.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you didn't read all the verses, because that is not the case.
Consider Luke 12:35-36 Luke 13:22-25; Luke 14:16-17; Luke 15:11-12; Luke 16:1-2; Luke 16:14-20

Sorry, I don't think any of those say that the Lazarus story was just a parable.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

I meant, I don't think the Lazarus story tells about hellfire. And I don't think the point of the story is to make people to believe in hellfire. The palace where the rich man is, is called Hades and I don't think that is the same as Hell, because I think hell is the fire lake that is also called Gehenna. By what the Bible tells, Hades will be thrown to the fire lake in the end.

In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
Luke 16:23

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sorry, I don't think any of those say that the Lazarus story was just a parable.
I don't understand that response. Sorry.
Did you expect them to say that?
They don't say Jesus starts all his parables by saying it is a parable.
That was the purpose of the scriptures. They all are parables, which Jesus did not start by saying it is a parable.

Do you believe the rich man and the steward is a parable? Luke 16
What about the story of the prodigal son... is that a parable? Luke 15
What about the great supper people were invited to. Is that a parable? Luke 14

If you accept those as parables, then why not the rich man and Lazarus?
If you don't accept them as parables, why don't you?
If you don't know whether they are parables or not, how do you know the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable?

I meant, I don't think the Lazarus story tells about hellfire. And I don't think the point of the story is to make people to believe in hellfire. The palace where the rich man is, is called Hades and I don't think that is the same as Hell, because I think hell is the fire lake that is also called Gehenna. By what the Bible tells, Hades will be thrown to the fire lake in the end.

In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
Luke 16:23

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
How can the lake of fire be hell, when hell is cast into the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Why don't you think Hades is hell?
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
I don't understand that response. Sorry.
Did you expect them to say that?
...
If you don't accept them as parables, why don't you?

I think it is always said, if it is a parable of something. For example:

Hear, then, the parable of the farmer....
Matt. 13:18

If the story of Lazarus is a parable, what do you think it is parable of?

How can the lake of fire be hell, when hell is cast into the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Why don't you think Hades is hell?

Because some translations call Gehenna hell, not Hades. And because of they both are called hell, I think it would be best to use words Hades and Gehenna so that people would understand the difference.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I think it is always said, if it is a parable of something. For example:

Hear, then, the parable of the farmer....
Matt. 13:18

If the story of Lazarus is a parable, what do you think it is parable of?.
You haven't answered my questions 1213. :)

Because some translations call Gehenna hell, not Hades. And because of they both are called hell, I think it would be best to use words Hades and Gehenna so that people would understand the difference.
What then if hell is not to be used at all, and your calling the lake of fire hell, is also wrong?
Would that not confuse people, in the same way?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The TaNaKh does not say that Satan was banished from heaven nor that he rules in hell. Those ideas come from the Christian New Testament and sources.
 
One lives a temporary life on earth. By situations in life, the dude cheats on his wife, steals from his work and lies all the time.

According to some doctrines outside of the Bible, this dude destiny will be torment in a place with flames, and will be forever for what he did in his temporary life on earth.

It makes no sense at all.

On the other hand, the Bible says, the sinner soul surely will die. That is more like it.

Hell is not biblical.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Acts of the Apostles 17:2…

Acts 17:2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

(Of course, this only works with others who accept the Bible.)

It is only with logic and reason we should accept to embrace any faith in God.

If we are then all founded in logic and reason, there should be no division of what is of God.

I see the division comes from man made ideas of God, as God is One and we are One human race.

John 10:16 says it all in one short passage.

King James Bible
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"

That call to all sheep of all folds has been raised. Really one can say no more, but to wait until the call is heeded. Meanwhile preparation continues for when they all arrive.

It appears the wolves in sheep's clothing are still keeping people away.

Stay well stay safe Hockeycowboy. ;):praying::praying::praying::praying::praying::raisedhands::handok:

Regards Tony
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
"...accept (your chosen interpretation of)
the Bible"
No….I meant those who accept the Bible as God’s Word. If people have a respect for God’s Word, no matter what religion they are, reasoning on Scriptures that are related to the subject being discussed, is many times beneficial.

I have done that quite a lot, successfully. Not all the time of course, but sometimes.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
No….I meant those who accept the Bible as God’s Word. If people have a respect for God’s Word, no matter what religion they are, reasoning on Scriptures that are related to the subject being discussed, is many times beneficial.

I have done that quite a lot, successfully. Not all the time of course, but sometimes.
" Reasoning" got you millions
of quick frozen mammoths in
"Flood muck".
From the others, who fly closer to earth
with their chosen versions of
Bible - reasoning and respecting, we get
40,000 sects.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
reasoning and respecting, we get
40,000 sects.
Have you ever researched the source of this 40,000 number? I think if you do, you'll find the actual number is under 1000.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Have you ever researched the source of this 40,000 number? I think if you do, you'll find the actual number is under 1000.
You research it.
And don't forget to include all each individual
person with a unique Truth.
One thousand, forty or a hundred thousand,
it still illustrates the fact that this reading and reasoning doesn't work- it just keeps spreading
out, not coming together.
 
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