Whose Faith is Blind - Theists or Atheists?

[Autodidact]

Theists have:
The testimony of others – Whether it be growing up in a believing home or seeing others in church and worshiping, theists have the testimony of others of what God has done or doing in their lives.

And atheists have the testimony of other atheists. So far we're even.

Written history – Whether or not you accept the Bible or other religious texts as truth, theists have them and they point to God.

How do they point to God if they're not true? Actually, I find that the Bible strongly points to the non-existence of God. Still a tie.

General revelation – When you see a painting you know there is a painter, just like when you see the earth, sky, and humans you know there has to be a creator.

No, you don't. They're not analogous.

Jesus or other religious leader – Theists have Jesus and other religious leaders that have supposedly performed miracles or have been ordained by and point to God.

O.K., atheists have atheist thinkers who argue the opposite. I'm still seeing a tie here.

Our own spirits – People have a spiritual craving to discover God and to worship something beyond self.

Speak for yourself; I sure don't.

Atheists see all of the same things yet they choose not to believe which leads me to consider that it is the atheists that blind themselves to reality and have blind faith.

You seem to be blind to all the same things that atheists have.

 

[Tristesse]

Theists have:
The testimony of others – Whether it be growing up in a believing home or seeing others in church and worshiping, theists have the testimony of others of what God has done or doing in their lives.
Written history – Whether or not you accept the Bible or other religious texts as truth, theists have them and they point to God.
General revelation – When you see a painting you know there is a painter, just like when you see the earth, sky, and humans you know there has to be a creator.
Jesus or other religious leader – Theists have Jesus and other religious leaders that have supposedly performed miracles or have been ordained by and point to God.
Our own spirits – People have a spiritual craving to discover God and to worship something beyond self.

Atheists see all of the same things yet they choose not to believe which leads me to consider that it is the atheists that blind themselves to reality and have blind faith.

Testimony of others, is necessarily first person experience, it doesn't justify the belief for anyone other than the person or persons who experienced it. Also, if you're going to accept testimony of others, you would also have to accept the testimony of others who disagree with your vision of god, i.e. muslims or hindus etc...

It's debatable how much history the bible contains. The bible definitely has some historical truth to it, but it also has some historical errors too. And I don't see how the bible having history in it, in anyway makes the god claim remotely true. For instance, new york is a real place, but that doesn't mean spider man exists.

When you see a panting you know it has a creator, not because of how complex the painting is, but because we have no copies of painting occuring naturally, and the occuring naturally is the important part. Humans, trees etc... these things occur naturally. They require a different explanation than a creator one. Have you ever seen a human being created, without sexual reproduction?

Yes, jesus supposedly performed maricles. Supposedly is the operative word. There are people that you can talk to today, that will tell you stories about how they were obducted by aliens. Do you believe them? And thats in todays society, 2,000 years ago when you're relying on oral tradition and a long history of superstitious beliefs, the stories become so unreliable.

I'm an atheist, I have no faith in anything. I rely on the evidence to lead me to my conclusions, not leading the evidence to where I want it to go.

 

[Meow Mix]

Corrected to make a point and reveal the truth.

Theists have:
Anecdotal evidence– Whether it be growing up in a believing home or seeing others in church and worshiping, theists have unsupported anecdotal evidence that would never fly in any philosophy course or in a court of law.
Written mythology – Whether or not you accept the Bible or other religious texts as truth, theists have them and so does everyone else in the world even if they all disagree with each other and on much evidence, particularly during creation stories.
Teleological fallacies – When you see a painting you know there is a painter, just like when you see the earth, sky, and humans you know there has to be a creator. That is, if you don't understand that this is a teleological fallacy.
Charismatic originators – Theists have Jesus and other religious leaders that have supposedly performed miracles or have been ordained by and point to God. Let's not forget charismatic leaders like L. Ron Hubbard who prove every day just how gullible people can be.
Our own wishful thinking – People have a spiritual craving to discover God and to worship something beyond self.

There, that looks a lot more accurate to me now.

Atheists see all of the same things yet they choose not to believe which leads me to consider that it is the atheists that blind themselves to reality and have blind faith.

Or, atheists don't fall for fallacies and epistemic blunders.

 

[Atomist]

The OP has 5 reasons why theism is reasonable.

I never attacked theism... all I'm arguing is that atheism is reasonable... that includes atheism isn't blind faith, try paying attention.

Edit: that's why I made that argument Meow Mix... so I can just link it everyone someone makes one of these threads and insta-refute them.

 

[Man of Faith]

I never attacked theism... all I'm arguing is that atheism is reasonable... that includes atheism isn't blind faith, try paying attention.

Edit: that's why I made that argument Meow Mix... so I can just link it everyone someone makes one of these threads and insta-refute them.

Well I have my own link now so we can trade links.

 

[Kerr]

Theists have:
The testimony of others – Whether it be growing up in a believing home or seeing others in church and worshiping, theists have the testimony of others of what God has done or doing in their lives.
Written history – Whether or not you accept the Bible or other religious texts as truth, theists have them and they point to God.
General revelation – When you see a painting you know there is a painter, just like when you see the earth, sky, and humans you know there has to be a creator.
Jesus or other religious leader – Theists have Jesus and other religious leaders that have supposedly performed miracles or have been ordained by and point to God.
Our own spirits – People have a spiritual craving to discover God and to worship something beyond self.

Atheists see all of the same things yet they choose not to believe which leads me to consider that it is the atheists that blind themselves to reality and have blind faith.

Some have blind faith. Others do not. If they are theist or atheist doesn´t matter that much at all. Just as it doesn´t matter if you are atheist or theist when it comes to generalizing and simplifying matters.

 

[crocusj]

The OP has 5 reasons why theism is reasonable.

Not true, the OP has 5 reasons why theism is reasonable to a man of faith. Remove the faith and the reasons become completely conjectural. I require no blind faith to reject mere conjecture therefore the answer to the OP question can only be that theists possess the faith (and indeed the bible repeatedly says that this should be the case). Alternatively you could just ask my Christian friends, who are continually calling me a faithless *******!

 

[Man of Faith]

Not true, the OP has 5 reasons why theism is reasonable to a man of faith. Remove the faith and the reasons become completely conjectural. I require no blind faith to reject mere conjecture therefore the answer to the OP question can only be that theists possess the faith (and indeed the bible repeatedly says that this should be the case). Alternatively you could just ask my Christian friends, who are continually calling me a faithless *******!

Well you have to have faith in something, the OP shows why the theists faith isn't blind. Atheists have to have faith that their belief is true also.

 

[Magic Man]

Well you have to have faith in something

No, you don't. There is nothing I actively believe for which I don't have evidence.

the OP shows why the theists faith isn't blind.

Faith is believing in something without having evidence. You have faith that your god exists. That's because you don't actually have evidence for his existence.

Atheists have to have faith that their belief is true also.

First, atheists don't necessarily believe that no god exists. All they necessarily do is lack a belief in a god.

Second, it takes no faith to say that God doesn't exist. All you have to do is look at the evidence and it is a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Tristesse]

Well you have to have faith in something, the OP shows why the theists faith isn't blind. Atheists have to have faith that their belief is true also.

Wrong! Faith in my opinion is useless, it serves no purpose. I don't have faith in anything.

 

[Willamena]

Wrong! Faith in my opinion is useless, it serves no purpose. I don't have faith in anything.

What does it mean (to you) to have faith in something?

 

[Tristesse]

What does it mean (to you) to have faith in something?

Well, there's a couple diferent definitions of faith, the type of faith thats most often applied to religious belief, is the one that I reject. And my definition for that kind of faith is, accepting a belief as true without sufficient evidence to justify it. The other kind of faith is more of a hope position.

 

[Man of Faith]

No, you don't. There is nothing I actively believe for which I don't have evidence.



Faith is believing in something without having evidence. You have faith that your god exists. That's because you don't actually have evidence for his existence.



First, atheists don't necessarily believe that no god exists. All they necessarily do is lack a belief in a god.

Second, it takes no faith to say that God doesn't exist. All you have to do is look at the evidence and it is a reasonable conclusion.

Faith isn't the belief in things with no evidence, it is the belief in things that you cannot see. Such as driving over a bridge, we have evidence that it will hold us up because we have done it before and others do it, but we can't see whether it is going to fall or not. Same with God, the OP shows the evidences that point to God but we can't see him.

It takes faith to say that God doesn't exist because we have the world to look at and we have our own consiousness and spirit to deal with. We have things such as love, beauty and art that science can't explain via natural mechanisms. so it takes faith to believe that we came about without a God.

 

[crocusj]

Well you have to have faith in something, the OP shows why the theists faith isn't blind. Atheists have to have faith that their belief is true also.

In effect what you are saying is that if I don't like Manchester United I must therefore support another team, I cannot take the position that I just don't like football...
You agree that the OP has faith, just that it is not blind yet he is prepared to take anecdotal evidence as a truth around which to build his entire belief system...smells of blind faith to me. Rejecting such ideas is not a matter of faith or belief it is no more than common sense. I understand that you hold atheism to be a belief system but that does not make it so. I see no reason why I have to replace an idea the concept of which is beyond me (theism) with another idea of equal conjecture. I would contend that mine is the default position (absence of belief) and therefore I require no faith unless I move from that position - which you and the OP have done.

 

[Man of Faith]

Wrong! Faith in my opinion is useless, it serves no purpose. I don't have faith in anything.

If faith in your opinion is useless then how can you be an atheist because atheism is an opinion.

 

[Willamena]

Well, there's a couple diferent definitions of faith, the type of faith thats most often applied to religious belief, is the one that I reject. And my definition for that kind of faith is, accepting a belief as true without sufficient evidence to justify it. The other kind of faith is more of a hope position.

Agreed. I don't know why people call that "faith" --I call it "guess".

 

[Man of Faith]

In effect what you are saying is that if I don't like Manchester United I must therefore support another team, I cannot take the position that I just don't like football...
You agree that the OP has faith, just that it is not blind yet he is prepared to take anecdotal evidence as a truth around which to build his entire belief system...smells of blind faith to me. Rejecting such ideas is not a matter of faith or belief it is no more than common sense. I understand that you hold atheism to be a belief system but that does not make it so. I see no reason why I have to replace an idea the concept of which is beyond me (theism) with another idea of equal conjecture. I would contend that mine is the default position (absence of belief) and therefore I require no faith unless I move from that position - which you and the OP have done.

And I hold the position that theism is the default position because of the general revelation of the physical universe, and because humans value logic, science, ethics, personhood, purpose and meaning which apart from God have no real basis in relationship with objective reality.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It takes no faith to lack a belief in Krishna.
It takes no faith to lack a belief in Set.
It takes no faith to lack a belief in Gaia.
It takes no faith to lack a belief in Allah
It takes no faith to lack a belief in Jehovah.
It takes no faith to lack a belief in any supernatural deity.

All natural occurrences can be explained naturally. And if we do not know the answers yet, we continually work on them.

What does faith is to fill in any unanswered questions with supernatural answers.
But what is most egregious is faith induced ignorance, where known answers are ignored in favor of supernatural explanation.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well you have to have faith in something, the OP shows why the theists faith isn't blind. Atheists have to have faith that their belief is true also.

You are simply not understanding.

A distinction must be made between true, "ordinary" faith and blind faith.

Blind faith is neither necessary nor desirable, except perhaps for people with serious insecurity issues. In fact, it is all-out destructive, as well pointed out by Dawkins in the OP of another recent thread: it may justify anything, regardless of true merit. That is, at best, risky.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say that we have to have faith in something. In a sense that is true, because we don't know the right thing to do in each and every situation, and therefore faith is a practical necessity. But it doesn't need to be blind or dogmatic - and in fact we all owe it to ourselves to avoid blind faith if at all possible.

For that matter, atheists don't need to have "faith" that God does not exist either. It is simply not a important matter for many of us, myself included. We just don't want to assume a God when there is no evidence for one, and a lot of convincing evidence against any.

 

[LuisDantas]

And I hold the position that theism is the default position

Except that it isn't. The wide variety of supernatural beliefs alone shows that not to be the case.

because of the general revelation of the physical universe, and because humans value logic, science, ethics, personhood, purpose and meaning which apart from God have no real basis in relationship with objective reality.

I beg your pardon? Where did you get such an idea from?