Why ‘us vs them’?

[ppp]

The "solution" then is everyone accepting and embracing and obeying the teachings of Baha'u'llah?

That is never going to happen. Anyone whose "solution" requires that the world adopts their religion is merely posturing They are not looking for a solution to anything.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is never going to happen. Anyone whose "solution" requires that the world adopts their religion is merely posturing They are not looking for a solution to anything.

Yes, they don't have a workable, practical solution.

How would they solve the war in Ukraine? They'd have all the other nations of the world rise up against Putin and Russia.

The war in Gaza? Who are they going to fight? For both sides, the enemy is mixed in with innocent civilians.

But Baha'is don't believe war and killing is the solution. So, what are they going to demand the opposing sides do?

The Baha'i solution is to have a grand "World Tribunal". If people or countries have a problem, take it to the Tribunal and let them decide. Both sides would have already agreed to abide by the decision. And if they don't? The Tribunal would force them?

So long as these prejudices [religious, racial, national, political] survive, there will be continuous and fearsome wars.​

​

To remedy this condition there must be universal peace. To bring this about, a Supreme Tribunal must be established, representative of all governments and peoples; questions both national and international must be referred thereto, and all must carry out the decrees of this Tribunal. Should any government or people disobey, let the whole world arise against that government or people.​

​

(“Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá”, p. 249)​

It's like this thread... The solution to "us vs. them" is for all of the people to love and accept each other. Yeah, that would work. All Baha'is have to do is get people to love and accept each other. But right here on this forum and in this thread, Baha'is can't even do that.

So, the solution depends on us agreeing with them and to "heed" the councils of their prophet, Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That sounds pretty good. Maybe it wasn't the intention of some of the Baha'is, but just by stating some of the Baha'i beliefs, they have alienated some people here. Now that it's already been done, how do Baha'is fix that?

That's why I think your input is needed. I think Adrian's thoughts would be good also.

But how do you treat people as equals and with respect if you think that their religious beliefs are wrong? I think that is the problem that is facing Baha'is.

I try to treat others as equals by looking at our common humanity and not our differences of understanding.

But this is a debating forum. A place where people are supposed to question things like the Resurrection or if Muhammad was the last Prophet or Buddha taught about God or not without fear of alienating others. If people are alienated by different viewpoints then a debating forum is not for them. Beliefs and theories being challenged and questioned and to share and learn in a spirit of humility is why we are here. Those who only want others to agree with their views and interpretations this forum is not for them. Better interfaith or their own DIR where they can’t feel alienated because their views aren’t questioned like they are in debates section.

Debating requires maturity not to get offended or feel alienated just because a different viewpoint is presented. If we’re all going to cry every time a view is expressed that we don’t like and accuse those presenting them of alienating others then we are denying them the right of freedom of expression which is a denial of a basic human right.

Recently I held a devotion meeting where a Christian and a Hindu attended. The Hindu chanted Bhajans about Shiva and Krishna. The next day the Christian phoned me and expressed indignation that the ‘false gods’ of Shiva and Krishna were prayed to. Now the person has cut all contact with us and this is so sad because what this person is saying is that only Christ is true and all the beliefs of the other 5 billion people on earth are false and must be shunned. Now the person has cut all contact with us and that Hindu. This is clearly prejudice that is the cause of alienation as it is often here because having different understandings should not cause us to feel alienated or offended if we are mature adults.

 

[danieldemol]

If we’re all going to cry every time a view is expressed that we don’t like and accuse those presenting them of alienating others then we are denying them the right of freedom of expression which is a denial of a basic human right.

Not in my view it isn't. Denying you a human right in my view would look like censoring you for saying non demonstrably harmful things which alienate others to me. Merely observing that your views alienate others but allowing you to say those alienating views does not do that in my view.

In fact it is ironic that you are crying over others expressing the view that your view alienates others whilst saying we should not cry over the expressions of others that we don't like in my view.

 

[CG Didymus]

Recently I held a devotion meeting where a Christian and a Hindu attended. The Hindu chanted Bhajans about Shiva and Krishna. The next day the Christian phoned me and expressed indignation that the ‘false gods’ of Shiva and Krishna were prayed to. Now the person has cut all contact with us and this is so sad because what this person is saying is that only Christ is true and all the beliefs of the other 5 billion people on earth are false and must be shunned. Now the person has cut all contact with us and that Hindu. This is clearly prejudice that is the cause of alienation as it is often here because having different understandings should not cause us to feel alienated or offended if we are mature adults.

For all the things in religion that say things like "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", there's verses that have a particular people being "God's" people and other people being the enemies of their God.

I think that you could even find verses in the Baha'i Faith that have some people being wrong and being the "enemies" of the people of God. There are just some claims and beliefs in religions that other people in some other religion are not going to agree with and say are false... even the Baha'i Faith.

Like... what you going to tell a Fundy Christian? "I love you and respect your beliefs.... except the ones I don't agree with." You know you're going to cause an argument and alienate them.

And you know they're going to tell you that you've been misled, and that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and is not the return of Christ.

So again, liberal believers in a religion that don't take their beliefs that extreme, as being the only right ones, are going to be able to get along with others. But how far are Baha'is willing to go to compromise their beliefs that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the promises of all the other religions?

If Baha'is do that, and they do, they are still putting themselves above the other religions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For all the things in religion that say things like "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", there's verses that have a particular people being "God's" people and other people being the enemies of their God.

I think that you could even find verses in the Baha'i Faith that have some people being wrong and being the "enemies" of the people of God. There are just some claims and beliefs in religions that other people in some other religion are not going to agree with and say are false... even the Baha'i Faith.

Like... what you going to tell a Fundy Christian? "I love you and respect your beliefs.... except the ones I don't agree with." You know you're going to cause an argument and alienate them.

And you know they're going to tell you that you've been misled, and that Baha'u'llah is a false prophet and is not the return of Christ.

So again, liberal believers in a religion that don't take their beliefs that extreme, as being the only right ones, are going to be able to get along with others. But how far are Baha'is willing to go to compromise their beliefs that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the promises of all the other religions?

If Baha'is do that, and they do, they are still putting themselves above the other religions.

It all depends on whether what we say is true or not. If Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the glory of the Father then we are doing Christians and all humanity a great service by informing them of the good news.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why? Why ? Why? the answer my friend is found at Revelation 12:12,9
Sinner Satan is the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2nd Corinthians 4:4
Satan is the behind-the-scenes Puppet Master pulling the world's strings.
This is a reason MAN's long history shows that MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

I do not believe the Bible teaches there is such a living creature as Satan. It is simply a symbolical term for the ego of man from which all evil arises. Man is responsible for wars, prejudice and hatred no one but him. And to palm it off on some fictitious character is to run away from responsibility for our actions. That which we sow, that we will reap which clearly states we humans are responsible for the mess we’ve created no one else.

Galations 6: 7-9

A man reaps what he sows.8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature [1] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[CG Didymus]

It all depends on whether what we say is true or not. If Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the glory of the Father then we are doing Christians and all humanity a great service by informing them of the good news.

Yes, if the Baha'i Faith is true, it is the most important message in the world. However, it contradicts all the other messages given in the other religions. Just like your post where you say, "I do not believe the Bible teaches there is such a living creature as Satan. It is simply a symbolical term for the ego of man from which all evil arises." Other than the Baha'i Faith teaching that Satan is "symbolic" where in the Bible does it make it clear that "Satan" is symbolic for the lower nature of humans?

Since Christians took it as literal, was it all that clear? And the other "symbolic" thing... For Christians, was it all that clear that Jesus didn't literally come back to life? Either Baha'is are wrong, or Christians are wrong? For some people, me included, there's lots of things that I believe are wrong about Christian beliefs. But that doesn't help prove the Baha'i Faith is true. It makes me mistrust all claims made by religious people.

And it is many of the Baha'i interpretations of the Bible and the NT that makes me question the Baha'i Faith. I think Christians are right about their interpretations of some of those beliefs they hold. I don't believe the Baha'i interpretation that they were meant to be "symbolic.' But... I don't necessarily believe those things said in the Bible and the NT are true.

Creation? The Flood? Parting of the Seas? Even the resurrection of Jesus... I, as I imagine you know by now, I take as religious myth. I believe the stories were told in a way to be believe as being true. So, for me, it doesn't help for the Baha'is to try and say they were meant to be "symbolic". I don't believe that. I believe they were meant to be taken as true.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not believe the Bible teaches there is such a living creature as Satan. It is simply a symbolical term for the ego of man from which all evil arises. Man is responsible for wars, prejudice and hatred no one but him. And to palm it off on some fictitious character is to run away from responsibility for our actions. That which we sow, that we will reap which clearly states we humans are responsible for the mess we’ve created no one else.
Galations 6: 7-9
A man reaps what he sows.8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature [1] will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Eve did Not have to listen to the serpent. Adam did Not have to listen to Eve. They reaped what they sowed.
So, 'yes' we reap what we sow (who we listen to). We have all inherited imperfection from fallen-father Adam
- Romans 5:12; 8:6,13
We will be paid back according to our choices - Romans 2:6-8
Endure to the end - Matt. 24:13 - endure faithful to the end of one's life (Rev. 2:10) or be found faithful at Jesus' coming Glory Time as mentioned at Matt. 25:31-34,37
We all can choose to be a figurative humble 'sheep' or a haughty 'goat'

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It all depends on whether what we say is true or not. If Baha’u’llah is Christ returned in the glory of the Father then we are doing Christians and all humanity a great service by informing them of the good news.

As Christian Scripture says that Christ returned in the glory of his Father as recorded at Hebrews 9:24
The glory of his Father meaning: into Heaven itself resurrected Jesus appeared in the presence of God on our behalf.
Truly good news in our favor.