Why ‘us vs them’?

[danieldemol]

Some religious action's could be Godly, some could be Godless.

Great, so lets agree to call all the non virtuous actions "religious" and all the virtuous actions "non religious" and see how you like it.

They are action's not based on love, in virtue and morality.

The God fearing religious actions?

Some action's based in love, are not necessarily based in virtue and morality and and thus also can be godless.

Wrong in my view, and I doubt the Godless appreciate the slur

Revenge is an example can produce this result. So many TV programs run on this theme, like vengeance is something good!

Regards Tony

Vengeance is generally not good, although it may help to educate people in certain specific instances by giving them a taste of there own medicine. But since we are calling bad things God fearing religious actions now perhaps we can agree that except for the certain specific instances mentioned vengeance is a God fearing religious action (note I don't hold this position, but it does show you how the shoe feels on the other foot in my view).

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm glad you acknowledge that. I'm bring that to the attention of @Secret Chief, @mikkel_the_dane, @danieldemol, and @CG Didymus.

Can you give me a clue why you've tagged me?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's right, though I imagine @danieldemol already knew about them. He probably knew about some context to them though. Maybe @CG Didymus knew about them also.

Hey, I expect any religion that believes in God and believes their prophet speaks for God wouldn't have anything nice to say about unbelievers.

However, I think it was the evils done in the name of God and religion has made it necessary for thinking people to evaluate all religious claims. Are these religions and their prophets really speaking for an all-loving, all-knowing, God? Then... is there even a God? And then when we look at how religions themselves evaluate each other, they don't even believe in everything the other religions say and, in some cases, they don't believe anything the other religions say.

And when it comes to beliefs about God, Baha'is and some others don't believe in the God of the Trinitarian Christians. So, when it comes to the Trinity, both Atheists and Baha'is don't believe the God of those Christians really exists. And, of course, those Christians are probably saying that both the Atheists and Baha'is are bound for hell for disbelieving in what those Christians claim to be the real and true God.

And when it comes to that, I agree with both the Baha'is and the Atheists. And not that those Christians might be right, I just don't think so. But when it comes to a God that sent Krishna, Buddha, Abraham and the rest? I don't believe in that God either.

Some mystical, powerful, and invisible could very well be out there. But I still think that, in many ways, it is people that invented who and what it is. Then invented laws and moral codes that fit their society and attributed them to having come from their Gods.

 

[CG Didymus]

And my name is Daniel, not CG.

It's an honor for me to have been confused to be you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Godless choices vs Godly choices. An Athiest can make godly choices and beleivers can make godless choices.

The world is experiencing the result of us vs them, the us being godly choices the them being the godless choices, no matter who is making them.

There are things in some Scriptures that justifies the religious people to kill the unbelievers. Some people in some religions have even burned at the stake other believers that didn't believe the "approved" doctrines and were killed for committing heresy.

Lots of people in lots of religions have gone too far. But were they being "godless"? Not in their minds... They thought they were doing God's will.

Bad religion, extreme religions, too much power and authority given to religious leaders have all been problems. That bad side of religion is part of what has been inherited by the Baha'i Faith. If we give over all authority to the Baha'i Faith, will they be different?

Chances are, I'm afraid, they won't. Baha'is have a lot of rules. If given total control, why wouldn't they enforce all those "laws" of God? Of course, for the good of all.

 

[Truthseeker]

Can you give me a clue why you've tagged me?

Just wanted you to know a different take we have on atheists compared to what you saw before by @TransmutingSoul. The selection of quotes he linked to was somewhat misleading, in my opinion. You should have the complete picture. There were actual quotes by our central figures of our faith, but presented an incomplete picture.

 

[Truthseeker]

Hey, I expect any religion that believes in God and believes their prophet speaks for God wouldn't have anything nice to say about unbelievers.

the quotes in that selection gave an incomplete picture, in my opinion. Most Baha'i are friendly to atheists., depending on the atheists, of course. There are some atheists here that I genuinely like.

Some mystical, powerful, and invisible could very well be out there. But I still think that, in many ways, it is people that invented who and what it is. Then invented laws and moral codes that fit their society and attributed them to having come from their Gods.

A lot of people have honestly come to that conclusion. Of course, you know that we believe that these People that appeared did give laws and a moral emphasis that fit the society they lived in, only we believe this came from God through them. Just a difference of opinion. There are a few people here in RF called Omnists that believe that every religion has some truth to it, but it doesn't come from an infallible God in each one. I respect these people.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There are things in some Scriptures that justifies the religious people to kill the unbelievers. Some people in some religions have even burned at the stake other believers that didn't believe the "approved" doctrines and were killed for committing heresy.

Lots of people in lots of religions have gone too far. But were they being "godless"? Not in their minds... They thought they were doing God's will.

Bad religion, extreme religions, too much power and authority given to religious leaders have all been problems. That bad side of religion is part of what has been inherited by the Baha'i Faith. If we give over all authority to the Baha'i Faith, will they be different?

Chances are, I'm afraid, they won't. Baha'is have a lot of rules. If given total control, why wouldn't they enforce all those "laws" of God? Of course, for the good of all.

In the end CG, all the scriptures are for personal transformation, it is up to each of us to embrace or reject them. The killing of unbelief is symbolic of embracing God's Word, it is not by the sword, but by the word and most importantly supported by associated action's, that unbelievers are killed.

Almost all godless acts are committed unknowingly, when committed knowingly, there is applicable guidance for this as well.

The passages about ungodliness are found in all scriputres and all are available to read. I found an interesting chapter in the Bible that is worth exploring. I will move from this topic and post a new OP under religious discussions.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

It's an honor for me to have been confused to be you.

It is my pleasure to have been confused with you, I corrected Tony only so he doesn't come to believe he is replying to the sock puppets of one person.

 

[danieldemol]

The passages about ungodliness are found in all scriputres

Really, there are passages about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures?! I thought not. But even if there were derogatory slurs about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures that would only serve to show the bigotry of Buddhist and other scriptures in my view. Your ad-populum argument is fallacious in my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Really, there are passages about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures?! I thought not. But even if there were derogatory slurs about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures that would only serve to show the bigotry of Buddhist and other scriptures in my view. Your ad-populum argument is fallacious in my opinion.

Yes really, same thing stated as righteous and unrighteous actions, or wicked actions.

Dhammapada 9. The Chapter about Wickedness

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

Really, there are passages about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures?! I thought not. But even if there were derogatory slurs about ungodliness in Buddhist scriptures that would only serve to show the bigotry of Buddhist and other scriptures in my view. Your ad-populum argument is fallacious in my opinion.

Right first time. I know of no "ungodliness" in the Buddhist texts I've read.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes really, same thing stated as righteous and unrighteous actions

If an atheist speaks of right and wrong are they are speaking of ungodliness in your opinion?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If an atheist speaks of right and wrong are they are speaking of ungodliness in your opinion?

Mostly as Right = Godly actions, Wrong = Ungodly actions

The issue faced is that some may see something as right, even though it is wrong.

Thus we need to be provided with a balance, a code of laws that determine right from wrong. Religions are given to offer the required balance, an offer we are not forced to accept.

Society does also set a balance with enforceable laws and regulations

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Mostly as Right = Godly actions, Wrong = Ungodly actions

The issue faced is that some may see something as right, even though it is wrong.

Thus we need to be provided with a balance, a code of laws that determine right from wrong. Religions are given to offer the required balance, an offer we are not forced to accept.

Society does also set a balance with enforceable laws and regulations

Regards Tony

To add to my argument that people might have invented their religions and Gods... How do we get people to think selflessly and do good things? A real good way to do it is to say that an almighty, invisible God is watching their every move.

If they do good and obey that invisible God, he will reward them with a wonderful, peaceful after-life for eternity. If, however, they want to live for themselves and do evil, then they too get a reward... Their reward is here on Earth, because when they leave this Earth, things aren't going to be good for them.

Now why do Baha'is take that threat of torture and burning in hell away? The Baha'i threat is being further from God? Not quite the same as what Christians say is instore for them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To add to my argument that people might have invented their religions and Gods... How do we get people to think selflessly and do good things? A real good way to do it is to say that an almighty, invisible God is watching their every move.

If they do good and obey that invisible God, he will reward them with a wonderful, peaceful after-life for eternity. If, however, they want to live for themselves and do evil, then they too get a reward... Their reward is here on Earth, because when they leave this Earth, things aren't going to be good for them.

Now why do Baha'is take that threat of torture and burning in hell away? The Baha'i threat is being further from God? Not quite the same as what Christians say is instore for them.

Regret of things left undone is a powerful force CG. We will be shown the things we have done and have left undone, those things left undone can not be revisited.

There is an interesting NDE, I see it is intertwined with some worldly concepts, but a lot of it reflects a little of what may come.

This person was an Athiest by the way, so that may indicate to some people that from a Baha'i point of view, we all awake to the next life, that we all answer for what we have done and have left undone.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

To add to my argument that people might have invented their religions and Gods... How do we get people to think selflessly and do good things? A real good way to do it is to say that an almighty, invisible God is watching their every move.

What we tell them is not going to help but if people really believe that God is watching and then they would be less selfish, hopefully.

If they do good and obey that invisible God, he will reward them with a wonderful, peaceful after-life for eternity. If, however, they want to live for themselves and do evil, then they too get a reward... Their reward is here on Earth, because when they leave this Earth, things aren't going to be good for them.

That is true, and you just reminded me of a passage that sums it up quite nicely. The reward of Heaven is reflecting God's light and being close to God after we die. Conversely, failing to be close to God in this life, and instead being attached to this world, leads us to be victims to self and passion. That is Hell.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I understand the need for order and to have governments, religious leaders and an identity. But only for practical purposes not that we should become enemies or strangers .
Why haven’t we people been more vigilant with regards to our leaders both religious and political, turning us against one another by creating an ‘us vs them’ mentality in our minds when in reality we are all fellow humans? For thousands of years we humans have been pitted against one another often manipulated by leaders demonising other human beings so we will kill them.
We have been educated to shun one another because others are ‘them’ not ‘us’ and the world has become divided, disunited and bigoted. Why do many choose to listen to political and religious leaders who want us to kill each other? Is it an ego trip where the follower feels on top of the world upon hearing in a sermon by the priest that he’s the ‘only’ one saved and all others are sinners condemned to hell or a true believer told by his imam that all non believers are ‘infidels’ and their lives inferior? Why do we not question this?
Humanity has listened to this rubbish and nonsense for centuries. Science tells us we are all one family. But our leaders tell us we are ‘us vs them’ Do you really believe them?..................................

Why? Why ? Why? the answer my friend is found at Revelation 12:12,9
Sinner Satan is the ' god ' of this world of badness - 2nd Corinthians 4:4
Satan is the behind-the-scenes Puppet Master pulling the world's strings.
This is a reason MAN's long history shows that MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Much longer than that. It isn't a societal issue, it's a human issue. We're still essentially pack animals, it's just that our pack identities have become much more complicated and multi-faceted. It remains our natural instinct to favour "our own" over "others", but how we draw the dividing lines has become much more complicated, and it is that many people use (or abuse) for their own purposes.
I agree with the principle that it would generally be better if we treated all other people as if we were part of one "human" group, and support efforts to encourage that, but that requires an understanding of those underlying animals instincts and I doubt we'll ever be able to completely override them.

Interesting that you say ' pack animals ' because with out the Golden Rule and Jesus' New Commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love others as Jesus loves others seems that mankind reverts backwards.
So, mankind without applying the godly love as Jesus has and displayed can't override.
Man's long history shows that man can't direct his step (Jeremiah 17:9; 10:23) so this is why God will have Jesus step in. Step in to take the action to rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes really, same thing stated as righteous and unrighteous actions, or wicked actions.

Regards Tony

To me there is a difference between the three: righteous/ unrighteous/ wicked.
In the Bible both the righteous and unrighteous (KJV just and unjust) will have a resurrection. - Acts 24:15
Whereas, the wicked will be gone ' destroyed forever ' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22
The resurrected righteous will need to remain righteous.
The unrighteous will need to become or learn to become righteous and then stay righteous to gain everlasting life.