Why ‘us vs them’?

[Truthseeker]

This brough a smile "Overload Them" Is it us vs them?

Maybe those that compile quotes under certain categories are not really doing us a favour?

A person who typed in what Baha'u'llah, or what the entire Baha'i Writings say on a certain subject, would get this type of information near the top of their search.

All those will he found at bahai.org in the library.

There is also ample to support your loving guidance

"No obstacle should be placed before any soul which might prevent it from finding the truth. Bahá’u’lláh revealed His directions, teachings and laws, so that souls might know God, and not that any utterance might become an obstacle in their way."

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the Holy Land answers questions of Dr. Edward C. Getsinger in 1915: Star of the West, Vol. 6, No. 6, p. 43)

Regards Tony

You ignored the other stuff I said. I did edit it later, perhaps it was too late for you to see those edits. I am also thoughtful, and sometimes I go back and edit what I see as deficiencies, or incomplete information. Anyway, I suspect it's the latter so look back at the post after I edited it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Those quotes out of context are like poison to some of us while to others they are like sweet water.
Those quotes did not have to be exposed at all, nor should they have been posted on a public forum.

That is hardly an excuse and in fact it is all the reason not to make the situation even worse.
Why put the nail in the coffin?

You saw the post after I edited it. I doubt @TransmutingSoul did.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is only reflective of the world Trailblazer

Godless choices vs Godly choices. An Athiest can make godly choices and beleivers can make godless choices.

The world is experiencing the result of us vs them, the us being godly choices the them being the godless choices, no matter who is making them.

Regards Tony

That's true, good choices and bad choices abound, but they need not be labeled Godly and Godless.

If atheists can make good choices without a belief in God, what does that tell you?
If believers make bad choices despite having a belief in God, what does that tell you?

 

[Truthseeker]

Those quotes out of context are like poison to some of us while to others they are like sweet water.
Those quotes did not have to be exposed at all, nor should they have been posted on a public forum.

That's right, though I imagine @danieldemol already knew about them. He probably knew about some context to them though. Maybe @CG Didymus knew about them also.

That is hardly an excuse and in fact it is all the reason not to make the situation even worse.
Why put the nail in the coffin?

Well, yes, for some it makes it worse.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm glad you acknowledge that. I'm bring that to the attention of @Secret Chief, @mikkel_the_dane, @danieldemol, and @CG Didymus.

The Godless (ie atheists) are a minority in some societies and as such calling un virtuous actions "Godless" comes across to me as a slander which at best unwittingly rouses the rabble against atheists. There is no correlation between atheists or godless people and non-virtuous behaviour in my view and im sure you wouldn't want people in an atheistic regime calling depravity "religious" as though there were a necessary correlation either, so I think atheists can reasonably expect the same courtesy.

Bringing that to the attention of @Trailblazer
@TransmutingSoul

 

[Truthseeker]

The Godless (ie atheists) are a minority in some societies and as such calling un virtuous actions "Godless" comes across to me as a slander which at best unwittingly rouses the rabble against atheists. There is no correlation between atheists or godless people and non-virtuous behaviour in my view and im sure you wouldn't want people in an atheistic regime calling depravity "religious" as though there were a necessary correlation either, so I think atheists can reasonably expect the same courtesy.

Bringing that to the attention of @Trailblazer
@TransmutingSoul

I don't have to. this is addressed to @TransmutingSoul, and @Trailblazer has already approved of my post in this thread.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Godless (ie atheists) are a minority in some societies and as such calling un virtuous actions "Godless" comes across to me as a slander which at best unwittingly rouses the rabble against atheists. There is no correlation between atheists or godless people and non-virtuous behaviour in my view and im sure you wouldn't want people in an atheistic regime calling depravity "religious" as though there were a necessary correlation either, so I think atheists can reasonably expect the same courtesy.

Bringing that to the attention of @Trailblazer
@TransmutingSoul

Many things I have done were godless

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Many things I have done were godless

Regards Tony

The only thing which is godless is not believing in God/(s) in my view Tony, the rest is slander

 

[Truthseeker]

The only thing which is godless is not believing in God/(s) in my view Tony, the rest is slander

There are some things you don't know or understand about the Baha'i Faith.

 

[danieldemol]

There are some things you don't know or understand about the Baha'i Faith.

Perhaps I dont know everything there is to know about the Baha'i faith but that doesn't preclude me from having a better understanding of it than you do in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are passages that offer further thoughts, this would appear to be directed contrary to what you are offering.

"Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth . . . Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 232-233

I personally see that in a much broader light, not restricted to an "Athiest".

Indeed, if you read the full passage in context you will see that it was directed at a King, and it was about justice.

“Hearken, O King (Sulṭán Abdu’l-’Aziz), to the speech of Him that speaketh the truth, Him that doth not ask thee to recompense Him with the things God hath chosen to bestow upon thee, Him Who unerringly treadeth the straight Path. He it is Who summoneth thee unto God, thy Lord, Who showeth thee the right course, the way that leadeth to true felicity, that haply thou mayest be of them with whom it shall be well.

Beware, O King, that thou gather not around thee such ministers as follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, as have cast behind their backs that which hath been committed into their hands and manifestly betrayed their trust. Be bounteous to others as God hath been bounteous to thee, and abandon not the interests of thy people to the mercy of such ministers as these. Lay not aside the fear of God, and be thou of them that act uprightly. Gather around thee those ministers from whom thou canst perceive the fragrance of faith and of justice, and take thou counsel with them, and choose whatever is best in thy sight, and be of them that act generously.

Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth. He that acteth treacherously towards God will, also, act treacherously towards his king. Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly.

Take heed that thou resign not the reins of the affairs of thy state into the hands of others, and repose not thy confidence in ministers unworthy of thy trust, and be not of them that live in heedlessness. Shun them whose hearts are turned away from thee, and place not thy confidence in them, and entrust them not with thine affairs and the affairs of such as profess thy faith. Beware that thou allow not the wolf to become the shepherd of God’s flock, and surrender not the fate of His loved ones to the mercy of the malicious. Expect not that they who violate the ordinances of God will be trustworthy or sincere in the faith they profess. Avoid them, and preserve strict guard over thyself, lest their devices and mischief hurt thee. Turn away from them, and fix thy gaze upon God, thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful. He that giveth up himself wholly to God, God shall, assuredly, be with him; and he that placeth his complete trust in God, God shall, verily, protect him from whatsoever may harm him, and shield him from the wickedness of every evil plotter.

Wert thou to incline thine ear unto My speech and observe My counsel, God would exalt thee to so eminent a position that the designs of no man on the whole earth can ever touch or hurt thee. Observe, O King, with thine inmost heart and with thy whole being, the precepts of God, and walk not in the paths of the oppressor. Seize thou, and hold firmly within the grasp of thy might, the reins of the affairs of thy people, and examine in person whatever pertaineth unto them. Let nothing escape thee, for therein lieth the highest good.

Render thanks unto God for having chosen thee out of the whole world, and made thee king over them that profess thy faith. It well beseemeth thee to appreciate the wondrous favors with which God hath favored thee, and to magnify continually His name. Thou canst best praise Him if thou lovest His loved ones, and dost safeguard and protect His servants from the mischief of the treacherous, that none may any longer oppress them. Thou shouldst, moreover, arise to enforce the law of God amongst them, that thou mayest be of those who are firmly established in His law.

Shouldst thou cause rivers of justice to spread their waters amongst thy subjects, God would surely aid thee with the hosts of the unseen and of the seen, and would strengthen thee in thine affairs. No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. Unto Him return the works of the faithful.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

They are already out, all over the internet.

Maybe they are, but they are not gathered together on one website for everyone to read.

Those passages in no way reflect my view of any person. Those passages were given by Baha'u'llah to all humanity, for each of us to consider.

No, they reflect your views of atheism in general, as you have posted here on various occasions.

Those passages were given to all of humanity to read, but they were not addressed to all of humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no correlation between atheists or godless people and non-virtuous behaviour in my view

Nor is there any correlation in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only thing which is godless is not believing in God/(s) in my view Tony, the rest is slander

It is not slander to point out the obvious Daniel.

The rest is reflected in the destruction of people's lives, with the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, with people's basic rights being neglected, with tyrants in power over the masses, all this is godless.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

It is not slander to point out the obvious Daniel.

It is not obvious to me Tony

The rest is reflected in the destruction of people's lives, with the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, with people's basic rights being neglected, with tyrants in power over the masses, all this is godless.

Regards Tony

Sounds like you are describing the US under Trump who was the champion of the theocratic elements of US society to me Tony, but that is a problem of conservative right wing Christian influence on politics, nothing to do with the Godless in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Those passages were given to all of humanity to read, but they were not addressed to all of humanity.

God's message, no matter who it's is addressed to, is meant for all humanity Trailblazer. That is the great thing about the Word of God. Even though tablets are addressed to specific people, tge words contained within are universal applicable. That is why you will find laws Given by God inserted in the text of these tablets.

An example. The Tablet of Ahmad was revealed for a specific beleiver, yet anyone who reads that tablet with absolute sincerity, is likewise blessed. It is a great story of a true seeker.

A Flame of Fire

Biography of the recipients, both called Ahmad, of the Persian and Arabic Tablets titled Lawh-i-Ahmad.

bahai-library.com

If only we could be a flame of fire.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Sounds like you are describing the US under Trump who was the champion of the theocratic elements of US society to me Tony, but that is a problem of conservative right wing Christian influence on politics, nothing to do with the Godless in my view.

Yes, but Trump himself is a "godless" opportunist using evangelists for his own purposes. Saying someone is "godless" is hard to define. It doesn't mean that Trump doesn't believe in God necessarily, I don't know if he does or not, but it does mean he acts like he doesn't believe in God.

This describes a lot more places than the USA also. It has become increasing like this in the world. The Freedom index keeps going down in the world. The number of new crisis out number resolved crisis by quite a bit each month. I keep up with these things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is not obvious to me Tony

Sounds like you are describing the US under Trump who was the champion of the theocratic elements of US society to me Tony, but that is a problem of conservative right wing Christian influence on politics, nothing to do with the Godless in my view.

I am only describing what results of Godless action's Daniel, not attributing them to any specific person.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Yes, but Trump himself is a "godless" opportunist using evangelists for his own purposes. Saying someone is "godless" is hard to define. It doesn't mean that Trump doesn't believe in God necessarily, I don't know if he does or not, but it does mean he acts like he doesn't believe in God.

Trump was raised and self describes as a Presbyterian.
Source: God and the Don.

It is not difficult to define the way Tony is using the word "Godless" in my view, he is using it to mean non virtuous.

What do you mean Trump acts like he doesn't believe in God? It sounds like you are using Godless = non virtuous to me there. In my view that is because you have been indoctrinated to believe that Godless = non-virtuous and I really believe it is shameless on the part of your indoctrinator/(s) since no necessary link has ever been demonstrated between Godless and the non virtuous.

 

[danieldemol]

I am only describing what results of Godless action's CG, not attributing them to any specific person.

Regards Tony

Let's call them "religious" actions and see how you like it with the shoe on the other foot.

And my name is Daniel, not CG.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Let's call them "religious" actions and see how you like it with the shoe on the other foot.

And my name is Daniel, not CG.

Some religious action's could be Godly, some could be Godless.

They are action's not based on love, in virtue and morality.

Some action's based in love, are not necessarily based in virtue and morality and and thus also can be godless.

Revenge is an example can produce this result. So many TV programs run on this theme, like vengeance is something good!

Regards Tony