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Why ‘us vs them’?

Should we

  • Follow blindly without question

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • Allow our religious leaders to turn us against other religions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Allow political leaders to manipulate us to see other nations as enemies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Allow media to control our beliefs

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Question everything

    Votes: 25 71.4%
  • Accept we are all human

    Votes: 8 22.9%

  • Total voters
    35

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Did Islam abrogate it? It doesn't seem like it. They have their own beliefs that I don't "consider" true. How about you? Is everything taught in Islam true?
We can be assured that the Quran contains a 100% true record of the Message of Muhammad.

The key is interpretation of that Message.

We know the interpretation was incorrect, the book of Revelation foretold this as the Two bodies laying dead on the street for the 1260 years. Islam became a faith of laws without the spiritual essence. (That does not say all were effected this way) Islam became the beast of Revelation, the 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers, built on a broken Covernant.

Ali was the true appointed line which all should have followed.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yeah, it kind of works now with Baha'u'llah. He has a message that includes all the people throughout the world. Has any other "manifestation/messenger" ever had a message that did that?

All the other messages and religions only worked for certain people in certain areas. And, to me, it seems much more likely that those people, in that area, invented things and took things from other religions and adapted them to make a religion that fit their society and culture.

But when you talk of "abrogating", we have lots of religions that had lots of different beliefs about Gods. And when a people were conquered by another people, their old religion was "abrogated". Or more accurately, outlawed and deemed as evil and false.

In many cases the conquering people were Christians. So, what did they replace the old religions with? A belief that Jesus was part of a Trinitarian God along with all those beliefs about Satan and hell and Jesus being the only way. So, one set of wrong beliefs replaced with another set of wrong beliefs.

So, should we just jump on board the Baha'i train? Or... should we investigate it and see where it's heading?
God has promissed that in abrogating a covernant, it will be replaced by a new Covenant, God will never leave mankind alone and without guidance. That tells us that we will need the guidance, as we will get things wrong. Why is this so hard for people to admit? Mistakes made in faith are rectified by asking for forgiveness and moving on to do the right thing, after all, God forgives sins outside of faith.

It's like our transition through all the grades of our schooling CG. When we terminate a year of learning, we go to the next grade. As we progress we do not do away with our past lessons, but build upon the structure of learning previously delivered. So with each new lesson, using logic and reason, we get to investigate as to where all this learning is heading towards.

We could see the new message as a test of what we learned in the class before. Did we get the answers right or wrong! It may be we got a lot right, but will find out there is much more to know before we can definitely say 2 plus 2 equals 4. We may find we got the answers wrong and need to reconsider what we learned.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
@hififish - Yes, God does indeed offer a challenge to an Athiest. There is no point hiding those passages, as they will come out eventually.

It does not mean that we are not able to share love and peace in this life and that is important to know.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah, it kind of works now with Baha'u'llah. He has a message that includes all the people throughout the world. Has any other "manifestation/messenger" ever had a message that did that?
No, no other "manifestation/messenger" ever had a message that abrogated all the dispensations of the past because no other "manifestation/messenger" ever inaugurated an whole new religious cycle, which was the consummation of all the Dispensations that had gone before it.

“A Revelation, hailed as the promise and crowning glory of past ages and centuries, as the consummation of all the Dispensations within the Adamic Cycle, inaugurating an era of at least a thousand years’ duration, and a cycle destined to last no less than five thousand centuries, signalizing the end of the Prophetic Era and the beginning of the Era of Fulfillment, unsurpassed alike in the duration of its Author’s ministry and the fecundity and splendor of His mission—such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán—an abominable pit that had once served as a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of the city.”
God Passes By, p. 100

It is important to note that it was only the Dispensations of the past that have been abrogated.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order.”
God Passes By, p. 100

However, it was only the former Dispensations that have been abrogated. The religions themselves have not been abrogated.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah has made it clear as to the station of an Athiest, they are victims of their own mind and choices. All these writings are not hidden, I will share them, as one day people will find them anyway.
That was so nice of you to point them out. :rolleyes:
That is called quote mining.

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

Fallacy of quoting out of context | Psychology Wiki - Fandom

Whoever posted that on the worldwide web should be ashamed of themselves. It does not reveal the sentiments of Baha'u'llah regarding atheists.
It only reveals the sentiments of one Baha'i about atheists, and of course that Baha'i has company. None of those quotes take into consideration why nonbelievers exist, but I am sure God takes that into consideration.

The arrogance of Baha'is who think that way about atheists is pitiful.
I would much rather keep company with an atheist who has good values than with an arrogant Baha'i who vaunts him or herself over others.
The fire of hell is our own godless choices.
Belief in God is not a choice. People either see the evidence for God or they do not. Atheists can't believe in God when they see no evidence for God, unless they are insincere. I appreciate their sincerity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@hififish - Yes, God does indeed offer a challenge to an Athiest.
God offers the same challenge to us all. God does not single out atheists. You are the one who is doing that.
There is no point hiding those passages, as they will come out eventually.
No, they would not have 'come out' unless you had posted them.
It does not mean that we are not able to share love and peace in this life and that is important to know.
Why would atheists want to share love and peace with believers who feel that way about them?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Really us vs them is the fight we have with our own self, mirrored in the whole.

Regards Tony
It seems to me like you have an us vs. them within your own self.
Us = believers...
Them = atheists.

That is not mirrored in the whole, only in some believers.
 
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Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Baha'u'llah has made it clear as to the station of an Athiest, they are victims of their own mind and choices. All these writings are not hidden, I will share them, as one day people will find them anyway.

The fire of hell is our own godless choices.
I think it would have been better to quote the Abdu'l-Baha quotes only as He is the interpreter of Baha'u'llah and the Bab.

I have my doubts that most of the quotes refer to atheists, as a aside.

Why subject the people here to an a collection of quotes that at times appear to say they will enter a horrible hell. I think hell should have been put into context, as distance from God. And as Abdu'l-Baha put into context:

Question. -- It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas "...whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." What is the meaning of this verse?
Answer. -- This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith. If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference. Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 237

There is such a thing as tact.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
God has promissed that in abrogating a covernant, it will be replaced by a new Covenant, God will never leave mankind alone and without guidance. That tells us that we will need the guidance, as we will get things wrong. Why is this so hard for people to admit? Mistakes made in faith are rectified by asking for forgiveness and moving on to do the right thing, after all, God forgives sins outside of faith.

It's like our transition through all the grades of our schooling CG. When we terminate a year of learning, we go to the next grade. As we progress we do not do away with our past lessons, but build upon the structure of learning previously delivered. So with each new lesson, using logic and reason, we get to investigate as to where all this learning is heading towards.

We could see the new message as a test of what we learned in the class before. Did we get the answers right or wrong! It may be we got a lot right, but will find out there is much more to know before we can definitely say 2 plus 2 equals 4. We may find we got the answers wrong and need to reconsider what we learned.

Regards Tony
This one is much more on the spot.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The Bible is true CG, a sure spiritual guide. Thus it was truth from before the first word was uttered, it was truth from the beginning of time, that has no beginning and will still be the truth until the end that has no end. The foundation of all Churches is in truth.

The key is our own attempts of growing spiritually, living life in service to a cause, or if we tack religion on to our way of life. Our interpretations of Scripture are clouded by material world attachment.

Regards Tony
Another one that is good.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible is true CG, a sure spiritual guide.
A "sure" guide? Or a not so sure guide? Christians believe that the Jews were guided by the Bible incorrectly. And Baha'is believe it guided Christians incorrectly. And I doubt very much that a Baha'i would take the Bible as a "sure" guide over the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.

So, for you the Bible is a "sure" guide... then what about this letter?

"As to the question raised by...in connection with Bahá'u'lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael; although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the saying of Bahá'u'lláh, which, it should be pointed out, is fully corroborated by the Qur'an which book is far more authentic than the Bible, including both the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh."​
(From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi​
That person speaking for Shoghi Effendi was wrong?

But here's from Shoghi himself...

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation...that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized,.."​
But then we have someone speaking for Shoghi say this...

"...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate."​
(From a letter dated January 23, 1944 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi
But does it matter? Baha'is can always say that they believe the Bible... just not literally. Which means a Baha'i can interpret it anyway they want to.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There is such a thing as tact.
Yes as everything in the writings needs to be balanced. In the end I see all of it is aimed at self examination.

How are we inspired to begin that self examination? How do we know what will start a soul on that path, for some it is the promise, for some it is the warning, for some it is neither of those two extremes.

So for some those quotes are poison, for some they are an elixir and for some it will make no difference. These are all available now on the internet with a search engine.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It seems to me like you have an us vs. them within your own self.
Us = believers...
Them = atheists.

That is not mirrored in the whole, only in some believers.
It is only reflective of the world Trailblazer

Godless choices vs Godly choices. An Athiest can make godly choices and beleivers can make godless choices.

The world is experiencing the result of us vs them, the us being godly choices the them being the godless choices, no matter who is making them.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
God offers the same challenge to us all. God does not single out atheists. You are the one who is doing that.

There are passages that offer further thoughts, this would appear to be directed contrary to what you are offering.

"Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth . . . Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly."

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 232-233

I personally see that in a much broader light, not restricted to an "Athiest".

No, they would not have 'come out' unless you had posted them

They are already out, all over the internet.

Why would atheists want to share love and peace with believers who feel that way about them?
Those passages in no way reflect my view of any person. Those passages were given by Baha'u'llah to all humanity, for each of us to consider.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes as everything in the writings needs to be balanced. In the end I see all of it is aimed at self examination.

How are we inspired to begin that self examination? How do we know what will start a soul on that path, for some it is the promise, for some it is the warning, for some it is neither of those two extremes.

So for some those quotes are poison, for some they are an elixir and for some it will make no difference. These are all available now on the internet with a search engine.

Regards Tony
What I meant by that is that we don't want to overload them with too much at once, and some material that they can easily misinterpret.

I also disagree with that particular hellfire approach. Your other posts are better. I approve of those. How about just using the quote of Abdu'l-Baha from Some Answered Questions in this particular post? In my opinion, for most people watching those quotes are poison. They didn't have to exposed to them prematurely. Of course, most people seeing them are already not favorably disposed to the Baha'i Faith, I realize.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
What I meant by that is that we don't want to overload them with too much at once, and some material that they can easily misinterpret.
This brough a smile "Overload Them" ;);):) Is it us vs them?

Maybe those that compile quotes under certain categories are not really doing us a favour?

A person who typed in what Baha'u'llah, or what the entire Baha'i Writings say on a certain subject, would get this type of information near the top of their search.

All those will he found at bahai.org in the library.

There is also ample to support your loving guidance

"No obstacle should be placed before any soul which might prevent it from finding the truth. Bahá’u’lláh revealed His directions, teachings and laws, so that souls might know God, and not that any utterance might become an obstacle in their way."

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the Holy Land answers questions of Dr. Edward C. Getsinger in 1915: Star of the West, Vol. 6, No. 6, p. 43)

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think it would have been better to quote the Abdu'l-Baha quotes only as He is the interpreter of Baha'u'llah and the Bab.

I have my doubts that most of the quotes refer to atheists, as a aside.

Why subject the people here to an a collection of quotes that at times appear to say they will enter a horrible hell. I think hell should have been put into context, as distance from God. And as Abdu'l-Baha put into context:

Question. -- It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas "...whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." What is the meaning of this verse?
Answer. -- This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith. If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference. Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 237

There is such a thing as tact.
All I can say right now is thank God for Abdu'l-Baha. As much as I sometimes complain about him, I always end up thanking God for his Writings.
Obviously, Baha'u'llah foresaw the need for an interpreter and Abdu'l-Baha sure fits the bill.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In my opinion, for most people watching those quotes are poison. They didn't have to exposed to them prematurely.
Those quotes out of context are like poison to some of us while to others they are like sweet water.
Those quotes did not have to be exposed at all, nor should they have been posted on a public forum.
Of course, most people seeing them are already not favorably disposed to the Baha'i Faith, I realize.
That is hardly an excuse and in fact it is all the reason not to make the situation even worse.
Why put the nail in the coffin?
 
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