Why ‘us vs them’?

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know about that solution. Harm in realty begins with harm in thoughts.

Often times, no. Frequently violence is spontaneous and without thought. This is the person who waves a gun over a disagreement or argument. Negative emotions have overwhelmed an otherwise logical and rational mind.

 

[Unfettered]

Often times, no. Frequently violence is spontaneous and without thought. This is the person who waves a gun over a disagreement or argument. Negative emotions have overwhelmed an otherwise logical and rational mind.

Perhaps in defense, yes. I admit, there can't be any absolutes here, but I'm guessing that a person who resorts to waving a gun over a disagreement or argument has given forethought to responding to confrontational situations with preemptive violence, or threats of violence, rather than responding with moderation and words.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps in defense, yes. I admit, there can't be any absolutes here, but I'm guessing that a person who resorts to waving a gun over a disagreement or argument has given forethought to responding to confrontational situations with preemptive violence, or threats of violence, rather than responding with moderation and words.

Not just defense. In anger especially to attack. This is what tends to drive the statistic of guns in the home being used to shoot someone who lives there. It's the result of offensive fighting words. Ever find a lover in bed with someone else? You probably won't be thinking much because it's a terribly emotional event.
We are human. That means we are emotional and prone to being overtaken, overwhelmed and overpowered by them.

 

[CG Didymus]

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 286-287

Why the Baha'is keep abandoning this thread, I don't know. In the U.S. this "us vs them" is getting worse. Protests about Gaza on college campuses. The on-going problem about pro-choice and pro-life. A Presidential election that could change the country and the world. The election of senators and congressmen is just as important. The Supreme Court is making decisions that are going to impact the country for decades. And we're the most stable democracy?

What is the Baha'i solution? What are these "counsels" that are being unheeded?

What do Baha'is suggest we do about Gaza and Ukraine? Pro-life vs. Pro-choice? The left or the right? Will Baha'is pick a side? Or stay neutral? Staying out of things is their usual stance. It's easy to say that "unity" is the answer. But how do they bring "unity" to people that are so far apart?

Do Baha'is really have a "fix"? Or do they want to stay out of it and wait until things to get worse and fall apart? And then come in to pick up the pieces and "establish" their world order?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is the Baha'i solution? What are these "counsels" that are being unheeded?

What do Baha'is suggest we do about Gaza and Ukraine? Pro-life vs. Pro-choice? The left or the right? Will Baha'is pick a side? Or stay neutral? Staying out of things is their usual stance. It's easy to say that "unity" is the answer. But how do they bring "unity" to people that are so far apart?

Do Baha'is really have a "fix"? Or do they want to stay out of it and wait until things to get worse and fall apart? And then come in to pick up the pieces and "establish" their world order?

The solution is humanity embracing the Councels given of God, which are given by all the Messengers CG. Unity can only be built on our recognition of the Oneness of God and humanity. That is now very clear.

The Pen has many meanings and if anybody was interested, I have posted a link to one persons study as to what the significance of the "Pen" in Scriptures means below.

Also consider the progression of religion, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the first Messengers to record the Word of God with their own Pen.

"...This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme...." Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 13-14

All the Messengers are God's Pen. The pen is a metaphor. The pen talked about is a feather or a hollow reed which contains the ink that flows on to the page. This also refelect the humility of the Messengers, God word flows through them, their human will 100% subdued.

A Study of the Pen Motif in the Bahá'í Writings

Theology and background of the pen metaphor — the creative force presented by the Manifestation of God — and the tablet — the recipient of th...

bahai-library.com

Muhammad as the Pen has recorded.

"Recite thou, in the name of thy Lord who created;
Created man from clots of blood;
Recite thou! For thy Lord is the most Beneficent,
Who Hath taught by the Pen;
Hath taught man what he knoweth not. (Qur'án 96:1-5)

The Baha'i are not able to make other people's choices CG, we can only offer what the Pen of the Most high in this age has offered, what God has offered through the hollw reed, the Pen of the Most High, the Most Glorious Pen.

So we look at those pens, or listen the pens of men.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Why the Baha'is keep abandoning this thread, I don't know.

I cannot speak for the other Baha'is but I left it because it is boring to discuss the Baha'i mission to change the world.
It is also futile since nobody know what is going to happen in the future.
I am also bored with discussing religion. It never leads to anything productive and people are not going to change their beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

The solution is humanity embracing the Councels given of God, which are given by all the Messengers CG. Unity can only be built on our recognition of the Oneness of God and humanity. That is now very clear.

The Pen has many meanings and if anybody was interested, I have posted a link to one persons study as to what the significance of the "Pen" in Scriptures means below.

Also consider the progression of religion, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the first Messengers to record the Word of God with their own Pen.

"...This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme...." Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 13-14

All the Messengers are God's Pen. The pen is a metaphor. The pen talked about is a feather or a hollow reed which contains the ink that flows on to the page. This also refelect the humility of the Messengers, God word flows through them, their human will 100% subdued.

A Study of the Pen Motif in the Bahá'í Writings

Theology and background of the pen metaphor — the creative force presented by the Manifestation of God — and the tablet — the recipient of th...

bahai-library.com

Muhammad as the Pen has recorded.

"Recite thou, in the name of thy Lord who created;
Created man from clots of blood;
Recite thou! For thy Lord is the most Beneficent,
Who Hath taught by the Pen;
Hath taught man what he knoweth not. (Qur'án 96:1-5)

The Baha'i are not able to make other people's choices CG, we can only offer what the Pen of the Most high in this age has offered, what God has offered through the hollw reed, the Pen of the Most High, the Most Glorious Pen.

So we look at those pens, or listen the pens of men.

Regards Tony

Well, it was Loverofhumanity's thread. I think there's lots to discuss. Religion is right in the middle of the Right vs. Left in politics here in the U.S. And it's right in the middle of the problem in Gaza. I actually don't see how Baha'is can discuss it without taking sides. Which would put the Baha'is as either "Them" or "Us."

No problem... We'll leave the solution to the leaders of the different nations.

Oh, and it looks like the problem with the protests on college campuses is solved.... Call in the police and National Guard and clear the protestors out. But that's what the Baha'is need... the old-world order falling apart... then you'll come in and fix it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

the old-world order falling apart... then you'll come in and fix it.

No CG, humanity as a whole will choose to fix it.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No CG, humanity as a whole will choose to fix it.

Regards Tony

Choose what? If the Baha'i Faith has the solution, then let's examine them. People here will read them, debate about them, and at least a few more people will be aware of what the Baha'i Faith is offering as a solution.

But, right now, it's not known, ignored, or written off as being too idealistic. An example of that is the call for all nations to disarm. But because people are so divided, and religion is a big reason why, how can they disarm when their neighboring countries hate them?

Israel depends on weapons and big, powerful countries to back them up. Who's supporting the Palestinians? Countries that don't have enough weapons to impose their will. But enough to be a threat.

What's the Baha'i plan? Stay out of it and wait for them to destroy each other, then say that the solution is unity and to disarm?

Then there's Ukraine... Without weapons where would they be? And would the Baha'i plan that if one nation rises up against another nation... that all the other nations should rise up to stop that nation from invading? Can that work against a big, powerful nation like Russia?

Even if all the nations were disarmed, a big nation could invade a smaller one with rocks and fists and take over. And will all the other nations be in agreement to attack that larger nation from invading? Or will some nations support them, and some nations oppose them?

Baha'is can't do anything right now. There only hope is for wars and disasters to destroy the world as it is now. Then... come in and say, "We have a solution. We have a plan. We can all live in peace if we all follow the guidelines that were given by God to Baha'u'llah."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Choose what? If the Baha'i Faith has the solution, then let's examine them. People here will read them, debate about them, and at least a few more people will be aware of what the Baha'i Faith is offering as a solution.

But, right now, it's not known, ignored, or written off as being too idealistic. An example of that is the call for all nations to disarm. But because people are so divided, and religion is a big reason why, how can they disarm when their neighboring countries hate them?

Israel depends on weapons and big, powerful countries to back them up. Who's supporting the Palestinians? Countries that don't have enough weapons to impose their will. But enough to be a threat.

What's the Baha'i plan? Stay out of it and wait for them to destroy each other, then say that the solution is unity and to disarm?

Then there's Ukraine... Without weapons where would they be? And would the Baha'i plan that if one nation rises up against another nation... that all the other nations should rise up to stop that nation from invading? Can that work against a big, powerful nation like Russia?

Even if all the nations were disarmed, a big nation could invade a smaller one with rocks and fists and take over. And will all the other nations be in agreement to attack that larger nation from invading? Or will some nations support them, and some nations oppose them?

Baha'is can't do anything right now. There only hope is for wars and disasters to destroy the world as it is now. Then... come in and say, "We have a solution. We have a plan. We can all live in peace if we all follow the guidelines that were given by God to Baha'u'llah."

Exactly CG, the Baha'i are already fixing it by pursuing the Councels given by God.

The next step humanity will have to pursue has been given so many times on this forum you should not have to ask.

Spoiler: Next Steps

The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny.… The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.... That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

(“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, pp. 249-250)

Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library

A Compilation Prepared by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice

www.bahai.org

The above spoiler has a quote and a link to peace requirements.

We can only choose to pursue peace as per those instructions, you get to make your choice as does the remainder of humanity.

Hold on, us vs them has just begun, the requirements for the Lesser Peace are still not being pursued. Note it requires us to embrace the earth as but one country, and mankind as its citizens, to have a global embrace.

Baha'u'llah addresses all the peoples of the earth.

"O ye that dwell on earth! The distinguishing feature that marketh the preeminent character of this Supreme Revelation consisteth in that We have ... laid down the essential prerequisites of concord, of understanding, of complete and enduring unity. Well is it with them that keep My statutes."

(“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 97)

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Well is it with them that keep My statutes."

I'd imagine that all religions have "statutes". And the people were expected to obey them. Have they ever?

So, what is the difference now? What are the statutes that Baha'u'llah has brought? Are people expected to obey them? If they don't, what will happen to them?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'd imagine that all religions have "statutes". And the people were expected to obey them. Have they ever?

So, what is the difference now? What are the statutes that Baha'u'llah has brought? Are people expected to obey them? If they don't, what will happen to

The difference is, is that God sends the Messengers when God so chooses. We take it or leave it, our choice.

God sent the promissed Messengers to guide us unto all truth, me, you and everyone gets to choose if that is a fact or not.

For me there is no doubt as to the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. If they were false, there are no Messengers and there is no God.

Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library

A Compilation Prepared by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice

www.bahai.org

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

For me there is no doubt as to the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. If they were false, there are no Messengers and there is no God.

I'll second that, but sadly, the greatest Messengers who ever existed have been ignored mostly because most people are attached to the previous Messengers.

Baha'u'llah is the greatest proof of God that has ever existed.

 

[CG Didymus]

For me there is no doubt as to the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. If they were false, there are no Messengers and there is no God.

Thanks for taking the time to responding. I just think there's so much to debate here with a subject like "us vs. them."

Even with this statement of yours... "no doubt"? You know that's the problem... Lots of people have doubts about the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Christianity and the rest of the other religions. For Baha'is, you are the "us", and everybody else becomes some type of "them".

But it is the believers in the other religions that are a very big part of "them". Why do they have to be? How can it ever be resolved?

Part of it is that they have "no doubts" about their religious beliefs. The "us vs. them" is all about people thinking that their beliefs and interpretations are the only correct ones. Since Baha'is have "no doubts" and believe their Scriptures are the most current teachings from God, then what is expected? Baha'is won't compromise. It is up to the other religions to change and to realize that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today.

How is that going to happen?

 

[Trailblazer]

Even with this statement of yours... "no doubt"? You know that's the problem... Lots of people have doubts about the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Christianity and the rest of the other religions. For Baha'is, you are the "us", and everybody else becomes some type of "them".

All religious believers have a right to believe that their religion is true, the truest religion, or even the only true religion, but that does not have to lead to an "us vs. them" mentality if people can maintain their personal boundaries and respect others' beliefs.

But it is the believers in the other religions that are a very big part of "them". Why do they have to be? How can it ever be resolved?

Part of it is that they have "no doubts" about their religious beliefs. The "us vs. them" is all about people thinking that their beliefs and interpretations are the only correct ones. Since Baha'is have "no doubts" and believe their Scriptures are the most current teachings from God, then what is expected?

It cannot be resolved and nothing is expected. People will believe whatever they want to believe for their own personal reasons.
Not much is going to change as long as Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way. There can never be unity with such a mindset.

The Baha'is are not the problem because we believe that Jesus was one of the greatest Messengers of God who ever existed, but for Christians Jesus has to be the Only Way, and they will wait for the same Jesus to return until hell freezes over. What can you do with such a belief? Nothing.

Baha'is won't compromise. It is up to the other religions to change and to realize that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today.

How is that going to happen?

It is not going to happen because suddenly people change their minds and become Baha'is.
It is not going to happen for a very long time, but I believe it is going to happen eventually because that is what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

In that passage, God's Cause is the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for taking the time to responding. I just think there's so much to debate here with a subject like "us vs. them."

Even with this statement of yours... "no doubt"? You know that's the problem... Lots of people have doubts about the Baha'i Faith, Islam, Christianity and the rest of the other religions. For Baha'is, you are the "us", and everybody else becomes some type of "them".

But it is the believers in the other religions that are a very big part of "them". Why do they have to be? How can it ever be resolved?

Part of it is that they have "no doubts" about their religious beliefs. The "us vs. them" is all about people thinking that their beliefs and interpretations are the only correct ones. Since Baha'is have "no doubts" and believe their Scriptures are the most current teachings from God, then what is expected? Baha'is won't compromise. It is up to the other religions to change and to realize that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is the truth for today.

How is that going to happen?

The Truth speaks for itself CG, it does not need you or me to embrace it. It unfolds in accordance only to the degree of our willingness to embrace it.

The moment Baha'u'llah revealed that the earth is but one country and mankind is its citizens, then that became a prerequisite for the Most Great Peace, a requirement for the new creation.

I guess I was lucky that this was already something I could embrace as truth, as I had been brought up witnessing many diverse beliefs of Hindu, Buddhist, Islam as well as Christianity while living in Penang Malaysia and was open to the thought they are inspired by the same one God.

That is the key CG, Baha'u'llah's Message is calling us to be one people. I have no issue with that, I have no issue of a united world that subdues excessive nationalism. I have no issues with the disarmament of the nations and an international force being directed by a union of all the Nations.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Truth speaks for itself CG,

Not always. There are a great many things we just don't know, but boy do we like to speculate about them, and criticize those who believe differently.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not always. There are a great many things we just don't know, but boy do we like to speculate about them, and criticize those who believe differently.

There is a great many things we can know, but choose not to pursue that knowledge.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Truth speaks for itself CG

Not always.

That's interesting that "The Truth" was brought up by a Baha'i. What was the "Truth" that was expected to be believed when Christianity first started? That Jesus was the Messiah. That he was born of a virgin. So far, Baha'is say those things are true. But then it gets "iffy." Did he really walk on water and raise Lazarus from the dead? A Baha'i might not believe those things literally happened.

Is Jesus the only way to be "saved"? First, we've got to decide what we are being "saved" from. It was from some "original" or "inherited" sin from Adam? Baha'is don't believe that. Then there's the resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Baha'is don't believe that literally happened. Then there is Satan and hell. Baha'is don't believe that stuff is literal either.

But those were the kinds of things that Christians believe are "God-given" truths. Jews don't believe it... And neither do Baha'is.

Religious "truth" sure seems to depend on what people are told to believe. But I'm not even so sure that all people in a religion really believe it completely. They just go along with it and don't question it.

There is a great many things we can know, but choose not to pursue that knowledge.

Or... look into it and find that it's not worth pursuing. But we are here. We are reading Baha'i posts and threads. That's "pursuing" it and showing some interest. Do the Baha'is have answers? Do Baha'is have the solution?

That's why I think Baha'is have to start thinking about... will some of the things Baha'u'llah said actually work?

Like representatives from each nation to form a World Tribunal? If it happened right now... Will they be appointed or elected? Either way... Who is Russia going to send? Or China? Or the U.S.? Or what about Guatemala? And will those bigger nations even care?

Too easy just to say, "Yes, it will happen someday. And it will all work out fine.'

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or... look into it and find that it's not worth pursuing. But we are here. We are reading Baha'i posts and threads. That's "pursuing" it and showing some interest. Do the Baha'is have answers? Do Baha'is have the solution?

All your choice CG.

Regards Tony