Why ‘us vs them’?

[Niatero]

The problem that I'm seeing may or may not be what people are calling "tribalism." It's people drawing lines of alienation between themselves and others, and using those to excuse and hide from themselves and others the harm in what they are promoting. I don't think that any philosophy or belief system, no matter how many people agree with it, will ever solve that problem or any other social issue. That includes Baha'i beliefs and teachings, and any kind of humanism or universalism. I don't think that any of those will ever solve the problems. They don't even solve the problems between the people who believe in them. In the case of Baha'is, we can see that very well from the online feuding between Baha'is that started in the late 90s. I don't think that It was about beliefs or principles. Disagreements about those were just excuses and camouflage over what it was really about. I think that it was about Who Gets To Decide What Everyone Else Will Do And Where The Money Will Go, and everybody on all sides in the feuding forgot all about the principles that they said they believed in. Even though the open feuding has stopped, if you look under some rocks, you can still see the animosity between them.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would be careful not to jump the gun if I were you because people who do that often end up with egg all over their face.
'They that are of a lower grade' is not referring to non-Baha'is. It refers to Baha'is who are of a lower grade.
You would understand that if you read the full passage which begins with 'The people of Bahá,'

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

I see that several poster jumped to the same conclusion:

@It Aint Necessarily So
@CG Didymus
@Secret Chief
@hififish

It seems like @Niatero only considered the post Informative so I hope he reads this and realizes that lower grade does not refer to non-Baha'is.

The point of the passage is that ones capacity, character, accomplishments and merits all play into where we end up in the afterlife, which means that more than belief in Baha'u'llah is required of Baha'is.

Baha'is don't have the 'guarantee' that Christians have, just believe that Jesus died for you and that is your ticket to heaven.
Everyone else goes to hell.

In the Baha'i Faith nobody knows their own end.

Seems you are correct, and I apologize. Still, the message could lead to a lot of inside battles, and spying on each other, other than accepting other members for who they are.

 

[Niatero]

I feel like this needs more context:

And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.

It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths….

 

[Vinayaka]

I feel like this needs more context:

You're right. It did need more context.

 

[Niatero]

You're right. It did need more context.

I've seen that passage before, but looking again, it looks to me like it doesn't actually answer that question that was asked.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've seen that passage before, but looking again, it looks to me like it doesn't actually answer that question that was asked.

Sorry, what was the question that was asked?

 

[Niatero]

Sorry, what was the question that was asked?

Whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. I don't see any answer to that in the passage.

"... the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul."

That looks clearly to me not being about life after death. There's nothing in the passage about life after death, except what happens at the moment of death. Certainly nothing about people's consciousness of each other.

 

[Vinayaka]

Whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. I don't see any answer to that in the passage.

"... the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul."

That looks clearly to me not being about life after death. There's nothing in the passage about life after death, except what happens at the moment of death. Certainly nothing about people's consciousness of each other.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[CG Didymus]

I feel like this needs more context:

Just after that is something interesting and could use some clarification from Baha'is to prevent any jumping to conclusions...

This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.

​

I wonder which "traditions" he's talking about?

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems you are correct, and I apologize. Still, the message could lead to a lot of inside battles, and spying on each other, other than accepting other members for who they are.

Baha'is are not supposed to ever look at the faults of others but rather look only at their own faults. Of course that could happen, but that would be totally against what Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to do.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

I am a nonconformist so I don't fit very well in the Baha'i community, yet they accept me for who I am, I hope. One can never know what other people are thinking that they don't say, but it is what they do that matters. We cannot help how we feel or the thoughts that come into our heads.

Regarding where we end up in the afterlife, any deepened Baha'i knows that we cannot know that, so no Baha'i should ever be thinking they have 'made it.' while someone else hasn't.

 

[Truthseeker]

In the case of Baha'is, we can see that very well from the online feuding between Baha'is that started in the late 90s.

Very few people were feuding with the Baha'i Faith. It may look that way from the amount of noise they made on the internet. Scholars were included who had lost their way, in my opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

They don't even solve the problems between the people who believe in them. In the case of Baha'is, we can see that very well from the online feuding between Baha'is that started in the late 90s. I don't think that It was about beliefs or principles. Disagreements about those were just excuses and camouflage over what it was really about. I think that it was about Who Gets To Decide What Everyone Else Will Do And Where The Money Will Go, and everybody on all sides in the feuding forgot all about the principles that they said they believed in. Even though the open feuding has stopped, if you look under some rocks, you can still see the animosity between them.

Yes, there were a few scholars that led that dispute with the Universal House of Justice, and it is clear to everybody except that small minority that Baha'u'llah had put the Universal House of Justice in charge. I don't know enough to say how they lost their way. Those who were following them in their confusion seemed to look up to these scholars, and didn't realize the scholars opinions have no weight in how the Baha'i Faith should be run. The Baha'i Faith have no clergy, and it was if to these followers that these scholars were clergy.

 

[Spice]

Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

I have another Baha'u'llah quote to add to my book!!

 

[Spice]

Nope. I myself asked this question to the Universal House of Justice because I was concerned about this:


Q. Will all people become Bahá’ís in the future?

A. There is no reference in the writings stating that every single person will become Bahá’í, but at least half of them will. Rúḥíyyih Khánum used to say that Shoghi Effendi was asked this question quite often by pilgrims. He would answer by saying that, in this Dispensation, the totality of the peoples of the world will not become Bahá’ís, but the majority will.
‘Alí Nakhjavani, "Shoghi Effendi - The Range and Power of His Pen"

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53) With loving Bahá’í greetings, Department of the Secretariat

I hope you don't take a cynical view of this. I take this to mean that each country has different circumstances and cultures, so therefore there is no cookie-cutter way for the way the government will change. Whatever Shoghi Effendi says is binding on any Baha'is in the future.

I find it a bit concerning, but no more than pieces here and there from all manners of religion. My faith is in the Infinite One that all will be as it should be.

 

[Trailblazer]

I feel like this needs more context:

"The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies."

I have never known what Baha'u'llah meant by 'the infidels' but I would like to know.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just after that is something interesting and could use some clarification from Baha'is to prevent any jumping to conclusions...

​

This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.

​

I wonder which "traditions" he's talking about?

I do not know what traditions He is referring to, but I believe that Christianity is one of them since it fits the description in the quote above.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem that I'm seeing may or may not be what people are calling "tribalism." It's people drawing lines of alienation between themselves and others, and using those to excuse and hide from themselves and others the harm in what they are promoting. I don't think that any philosophy or belief system, no matter how many people agree with it, will ever solve that problem or any other social issue. That includes Baha'i beliefs and teachings, and any kind of humanism or universalism. I don't think that any of those will ever solve the problems.

I agree. No religion or philosophy will solve the problem of alienation between self and others, not unless the inner character of the people who hold to those religions and philosophies change.

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.”
Shoghi Effendi, Bahá’í Administration, p. 66

In my opinion, the Baha'is are too busy trying to 'save the world' to have time to look at their own inner life and private character.
As a former student of psychology I recall that is called 'doing your inner work.' I spent over 20 years doing that work before I even attempted to call myself a Baha'i, and that is why I was not an 'active Baha'i' for most of my life.

 

[Niatero]

I agree. No religion or philosophy will solve the problem of alienation between self and others, not unless the inner character of the people who hold to those religions and philosophies change.

Bingo! You surprised me!

 

[danieldemol]

One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.”
Shoghi Effendi, Bahá’í Administration, p. 66

It wouldn't make much of a difference to me, do you feel like converting to Mormonism when you meet nice Mormons?

In my view their beliefs are not wholly true no matter how well they represent them and the same goes for the Baha'i faith.

It would make the world a better place if it was filled with nice people but it won't make us part of one religion as I see it

 

[Trailblazer]

It wouldn't make much of a difference to me, do you feel like converting to Mormonism when you meet nice Mormons?

No, but I do appreciate those nice Mormons.

In my view their beliefs are not wholly true no matter how well they represent them and the same goes for the Baha'i faith.

What does it mean to have a belief that is 'wholly true?'
In my opinion, the Baha'i Faith is the truest religion that there is at the present time.
No religion can ever be inerrant once humans get involved since humans are fallible.

It would make the world a better place if it was filled with nice people but it won't make us part of one religion as I see it

I don't think that everyone needs to be part of one religion, not until the time comes, as ordained by God.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91