Why ‘us vs them’?

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't see any reason to start a new thread. It looks to me like that's exactly the topic of this thread. I do have my own ideas about how to help solve the world's problems, and about what Baha'u'llah says the solutions are, but I was interested in what you think about it.

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

That is everyone's free will choice, so I just pray that 'May God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'. I have no control over any of this, but living the life myself.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To cut-to-the-chase here, I was not interested in another faith with boundaries, so I respectively stopped digging deeper.

I hope you find what you are looking for, that has no boundaries.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is exactly what I am asking of you. Demonstrate your community engagement. Demonstrate that you have a grasp of the real people and their real need.

I have no intention to do that, and never will just because someone asks you to, this is not a look at me and what I am doing faith.

I dislike this about this world that one has to sell their own selves. Back when I started work someone gave you a job, no CV needed. After a day, they knew if you are what they needed, or what they did not need.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I have no intention to do that, and never will just because someone asks you to, this is not a look at me and what I am doing faith.

I dislike this about this world that one has to sell their own selves. Back when I started work someone gave you a job, no CV needed. After a day, they knew if you are what they needed, or what they did not need.

Regards Tony

Baha'i want us to just give them the job of world management without even so much as a CV outlining their credentials to do so lol.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'i want us to just give them the job of world management without even so much as a CV outlining their credentials to do so lol.

Goodbye Daniel.

Tony

 

[Niatero]

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

That is everyone's free will choice, so I just pray that 'May God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'. I have no control over any of this, but living the life myself.

Regards Tony

Okay, thanks.

 

[ajay0]

I understand the need for order and to have governments, religious leaders and an identity. But only for practical purposes not that we should become enemies or strangers .

Why haven’t we people been more vigilant with regards to our leaders both religious and political, turning us against one another by creating an ‘us vs them’ mentality in our minds when in reality we are all fellow humans? For thousands of years we humans have been pitted against one another often manipulated by leaders demonising other human beings so we will kill them.

We have been educated to shun one another because others are ‘them’ not ‘us’ and the world has become divided, disunited and bigoted. Why do many choose to listen to political and religious leaders who want us to kill each other? Is it an ego trip where the follower feels on top of the world upon hearing in a sermon by the priest that he’s the ‘only’ one saved and all others are sinners condemned to hell or a true believer told by his imam that all non believers are ‘infidels’ and their lives inferior? Why do we not question this?

Humanity has listened to this rubbish and nonsense for centuries. Science tells us we are all one family. But our leaders tell us we are ‘us vs them’ Do you really believe them?

Are we all related?

Basic math tells us that all humans share ancestors, but it’s amazing how recently those shared ancestors lived. Thanks to genetic data in the 21st century, scientists are discovering that we really are all descended from one mother. It’s Okay To Be Smart explores our common human ancestry.

ed.ted.com

Due to lack of self-knowledge, human beings are bound to emotionally identify with their external identities related to race, religion, creed,
nationality,ideology, gender and so on leading to disharmony and conflicts. These external identities are functional identities which have their utility such as in passports and gender based washrooms.

As per eastern religious philosophy, when one does not know one's true identity of the Self, one is bound to identify with the external identities with heavy emotion, which is a recipe for strife.

 

[danieldemol]

Goodbye Daniel.

Tony

I'm not going anywhere but if you are goodbye Tony

 

[Niatero]

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

That is everyone's free will choice, so I just pray that 'May God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'. I have no control over any of this, but living the life myself.

Regards Tony

Do you mean, by everyone practicing his teachings? It’s interesting to me that the Baha’i Faith focuses more on transforming society than some other religions, so I can see the appeal for people who are dreaming of a better world.

I’m supposing that you think that some day most or all people will be practicing Baha’u’llah’s teachings. Do you have any ideas about how that will happen, by what processes, and how long it might take? How will more and more people find out about it, and what will be their reasons for wanting to learn more about it?

 

[CG Didymus]

Where's the Baha'is? Let's talk about your "solutions" to this problem.

Us and them... This is a Baha'i thread started by LH. Leaving things as they are... only adds to the problem. Baha'is say their guy is the "divine physician" and knows the cure for the ills of the world.

Now Leaving you all alone to find the solutions, it is apparent many here do not want to consider the solutions given by Baha'u'llah, so why offer them anymore?

We will live the given solutions and others have their choices.

I threw the Baha'is a softball, and you've swung and missed.

World disarmament, the end of the extremes of rich and poor and other economic things that the Baha'i Faith proposes. Have we ever talked in-depth about any of them?

The Baha'i have never, ever offered anything even vaguely resembling a solution to anything of note.

They talk about the end of racism. But they aren't supposed to actually get out and protest. What would have happened if Martin Luther King and all the others hadn't marched and raised a voice? Probably nothing.

But, at least within the Baha'i Faith, they, as best they can, treat others equally. But I was around them. I saw how things really were. They are just people. Some Baha'is are more "equal" than others. But they are working on it.

Unfortunately, they are kind of a top-down religious organization. Baha'is I knew had a magazine called "Dialogue" and printed an article "A Modest Proposal" that gave suggestions how to fix some of the things within the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i leaders shut them down and a few of the people got excommunicated.

I’m new here. I’m interested in your solutions.

Yeah, exactly. Just because I give them a hard time doesn't mean they should stop trying to put their "solutions" out there. After all, they are supposedly from God himself.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you mean, by everyone practicing his teachings? It’s interesting to me that the Baha’i Faith focuses more on transforming society than some other religions, so I can see the appeal for people who are dreaming of a better world.

I’m supposing that you think that some day most or all people will be practicing Baha’u’llah’s teachings. Do you have any ideas about how that will happen, by what processes, and how long it might take? How will more and more people find out about it, and what will be their reasons for wanting to learn more about it?

You're asking the right questions. In Tony's, Transmuting Soul's, defense... some of us here question Baha'i beliefs in a slightly negative way. So, I can see why Tony and some of the other Baha'is just quit trying to respond to people that don't want to learn but just want to argue.

But Baha'is keep posting in the debate sections. What did they expect?

This thread on "Us vs Them" is a perfect example of the problem. We have our opinions. We have our beliefs. And then some people from a new religion that claims to have the newest and latest message from God tells us what the "truth" is.

Well, that's "them" telling "us" what is true. Which means that things that some of us believe is wrong or at best, outdated. So, what happens? We point out what we think are flaws in their beliefs and why we shouldn't believe them. That doesn't go over very well.

And all of this leaves us with still... "Us vs. Them". The Baha'is aren't solving the problem. They are adding to it.

So, what is the solution? Honest dialogue? Without people claiming that their "truth" is "The Truth"? And actually, listening to the other people? That'd be nice. But it ain't happened yet. And I would think that, if the Baha'is are the real deal, they should be the ones promoting and supporting it.

Take care, hope you get some answers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you mean, by everyone practicing his teachings? It’s interesting to me that the Baha’i Faith focuses more on transforming society than some other religions, so I can see the appeal for people who are dreaming of a better world.

I’m supposing that you think that some day most or all people will be practicing Baha’u’llah’s teachings. Do you have any ideas about how that will happen, by what processes, and how long it might take? How will more and more people find out about it, and what will be their reasons for wanting to learn more about it?

I will offer I know that eventually the majority in the world will embrace the guidance given by Baha'u'llah, it will be a distant future though, maybe a few more hundred of years, as a Lesser Peace will happen before that day. The lesser peace will still have people trying to rid the world of religion. I can say that as it is the Word of God. All the Messengers, such as Jesus and Muhammad have said that day will come. I see the Bab and Baha'u'llah have brought that 'Day of God' to us. They have also foretold of the result of the rejection of that day and what will happen before global acceptance is embraced.

It has been foretold, and unfortunately humanity has chosen the path of calamities that will bring about the change. The oppression of the human race by natural disasters, dictators, tyrants, rouge nations, dishonesty, immorality, wars and civil disobedience and discontent will permeate the lives and mind of humanity. This man instigated oppression, will create such discontent, that the majority will look for an answer to change.

It is in these darkest hours that the light given by God gives, shines most brilliant.

There is not much more that can be offered on RF, as it has all been offered. All these threads are pursued by those that do not want that change. To offer it all again to the same audience would be wrong.

One only has to read the thread started by @InvestigateTruth about the return of Christ, it attracts the same discontent.

All the best, stay happy and well, I hope your part of the world will remain safe, but I see that no part of the world can escape what will now inevitably come.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I threw the Baha'is a softball, and you've swung and missed.

We threw a lifeline, no one chose to cling to it. No one yet sees they need to. The lifeline is not an 'us vs them', the lifeline is the only path to unity.

It would be wrong now to offer it all again, while no one still wants that lifeline.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

You're asking the right questions. In Tony's, Transmuting Soul's, defense... some of us here question Baha'i beliefs in a slightly negative way. So, I can see why Tony and some of the other Baha'is just quit trying to respond to people that don't want to learn but just want to argue.

But Baha'is keep posting in the debate sections. What did they expect?

This thread on "Us vs Them" is a perfect example of the problem. We have our opinions. We have our beliefs. And then some people from a new religion that claims to have the newest and latest message from God tells us what the "truth" is.

Well, that's "them" telling "us" what is true. Which means that things that some of us believe is wrong or at best, outdated. So, what happens? We point out what we think are flaws in their beliefs and why we shouldn't believe them. That doesn't go over very well.

And all of this leaves us with still... "Us vs. Them". The Baha'is aren't solving the problem. They are adding to it.

So, what is the solution? Honest dialogue? Without people claiming that their "truth" is "The Truth"? And actually, listening to the other people? That'd be nice. But it ain't happened yet. And I would think that, if the Baha'is are the real deal, they should be the ones promoting and supporting it.

Take care, hope you get some answers.

Us ... those who listen to Baha'u'llah, heeding his advice, or at least pretending to
Them ... all those others who don't

This division is made clear in almost every statement by some Baha'i here. But alas, there is another category that goes unmentioned, and that is all the people who do follow something very similar to Baha'u'llah's advice, often even better advice, just don't give him the credit for it. All the Hindus and Buddhists who practice ahimsa, the millions of atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc. who work towards harmony between religions without saying 'we're better, we're smarter, we're newer', hence setting up the 'us versus them'.

But I digress.

 

[CG Didymus]

Us ... those who listen to Baha'u'llah, heeding his advice, or at least pretending to
Them ... all those others who don't

This division is made clear in almost every statement by some Baha'i here. But alas, there is another category that goes unmentioned, and that is all the people who do follow something very similar to Baha'u'llah's advice, often even better advice, just don't give him the credit for it. All the Hindus and Buddhists who practice ahimsa, the millions of atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc. who work towards harmony between religions without saying 'we're better, we're smarter, we're newer', hence setting up the 'us versus them'.

But I digress.

Yes, I asked Baha'is about that. Baha'is tell others they are wrong in believing their religion so literally. Are they willing to compromise their beliefs for the sake of peace and unity? Some are. Some Baha'is I knew were very liberal in their Baha'i beliefs.

That type of attitude seems more common in the Dharmic religions... that we are all on different paths but still heading in the same direction and heading for the same place.

 

[CG Didymus]

The solution is easy.

All the religions have their solution. Like the Born-Again Christians... "Repent, repent... For the Lord Jesus is coming soon." And their belief says that Jesus will annihilate the evil Kings and rulers of the world and establish God's kingdom on Earth.

So, again I ask... In what Scriptures in what religion has the "Promised One" coming back and not fixing things? As far as I know, they have things going bad, real bad, but then the Messiah comes, or Kalki, or Maitreya etc. and they solve the problems.

Things were bad when Baha'u'llah came... but then things got worse. And then he died. And things got even worse.

But maybe you're right. Although I have my doubts. I don't see how the Baha'i vision of a World Tribunal is going to work.

In fact, don't Baha'is believe that it won't? That the final step, someday, will be for "God's" laws and government to rule the world. In other words, the Baha'i Faith and its institutions will be the governing body for all the world? Yes, nine holy, spiritual men, since women are not eligible, will rule the world. Of course, they will follow the guidelines set down by Baha'u'llah. And, like I've asked before, what could go wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

We threw a lifeline, no one chose to cling to it. No one yet sees they need to. The lifeline is not an 'us vs them', the lifeline is the only path to unity.

It would be wrong now to offer it all again, while no one still wants that lifeline.

Regards Tony

So, the people of the world are drowning, Baha'is have the lifeline. They've thrown it out there several times and nobody grabbed a hold of it? Nobody?

Some of course have. And if you cast it out there again, I'm sure some will grab a hold.

But, for some of us, we see where that lifeline takes us. It's to the Baha'i Faith being the one and only "truth" from God for today. That it is the "only" path to unity. Some of us don't believe that... yet. We have listened to Baha'is. Some of us have read some of the Baha'i teachings. It's not for us. It is not a "lifeline" that we want to take hold of.

But you're not the only religion throwing a lifeline and saying that only you can save us. Christian evangelists have made careers of telling people how bad they are and how bad things are and that they are going to get worse. Their lifeline? Jesus. But which sect of Christianity? And then some of them are cults. People grabbed on and died following some false religious teacher.

There's lots of "lifelines" out there... Why is yours the only true one? Ah, don't tell me. I know the answer. It's because all the others are wrong.

 

[Spice]

All the religions have their solution. Like the Born-Again Christians... "Repent, repent... For the Lord Jesus is coming soon." And their belief says that Jesus will annihilate the evil Kings and rulers of the world and establish God's kingdom on Earth.

So, again I ask... In what Scriptures in what religion has the "Promised One" coming back and not fixing things? As far as I know, they have things going bad, real bad, but then the Messiah comes, or Kalki, or Maitreya etc. and they solve the problems.

Things were bad when Baha'u'llah came... but then things got worse. And then he died. And things got even worse.

But maybe you're right. Although I have my doubts. I don't see how the Baha'i vision of a World Tribunal is going to work.

In fact, don't Baha'is believe that it won't? That the final step, someday, will be for "God's" laws and government to rule the world. In other words, the Baha'i Faith and its institutions will be the governing body for all the world? Yes, nine holy, spiritual men, since women are not eligible, will rule the world. Of course, they will follow the guidelines set down by Baha'u'llah. And, like I've asked before, what could go wrong?

Is this true? The Baha'i dominance and inequality of the sexes?

Could this be why the Baha'i dialog is limited here? I can certainly understand the hesitancy in putting these points up to debate. I hadn't heard these in my dabbling into Baha'i in years past.

But I also wonder about the excommunication that was mentioned earlier concerning a magazine that was shut down. Is the possibility of excommunication a large factor in the limited and restrained dialog?

 

[Niatero]

I will offer I know that eventually the majority in the world will embrace the guidance given by Baha'u'llah, it will be a distant future though, maybe a few more hundred of years, as a Lesser Peace will happen before that day. The lesser peace will still have people trying to rid the world of religion. I can say that as it is the Word of God. All the Messengers, such as Jesus and Muhammad have said that day will come. I see the Bab and Baha'u'llah have brought that 'Day of God' to us. They have also foretold of the result of the rejection of that day and what will happen before global acceptance is embraced.

It has been foretold, and unfortunately humanity has chosen the path of calamities that will bring about the change. The oppression of the human race by natural disasters, dictators, tyrants, rouge nations, dishonesty, immorality, wars and civil disobedience and discontent will permeate the lives and mind of humanity. This man instigated oppression, will create such discontent, that the majority will look for an answer to change.

It is in these darkest hours that the light given by God gives, shines most brilliant.

There is not much more that can be offered on RF, as it has all been offered. All these threads are pursued by those that do not want that change. To offer it all again to the same audience would be wrong.

One only has to read the thread started by @InvestigateTruth about the return of Christ, it attracts the same discontent.

All the best, stay happy and well, I hope your part of the world will remain safe, but I see that no part of the world can escape what will now inevitably come.

Regards Tony

Thank you.

When you say “embrace the guidance” and “cling” to the lifeline, do you mean practice the teachings? You’re saying that you think the world’s problems will be solved by people practicing Baha’u’llah’s teachings?

A possible problem that I see here is that maybe people are trying to find out how you think that will solve the world’s problems, and maybe you don’t know and don’t claim to know. You just believe it because you think that’s what Baha’u’llah says. Is that right?

 

[Madsaac]

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

That is everyone's free will choice, so I just pray that 'May God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'. I have no control over any of this, but living the life myself.

Regards Tony

Maybe not the worst thing, I'm no expert on this religion but its better then lots of others