Why ‘us vs them’?

[Niatero]

I don't suppose anyone is interested in what I think how the tribalism will be reduced some day, and how anyone who wants to can help. Also, how to help reduce the damage for as long as it keeps happening and even getting worse, which I think will be far into the future.

(later) On second thought, I don't actually want to discuss my ideas about it. I posted that in a moment of weakness. Sorry.

I would be interested though, in other people's ideas about it, if anyone wants to post any. If anyone thinks that the tribalism will stop some day, how will that happen, and what can people do to help? Also, how can people help reduce the damage for as long as it keeps happening? I'll go back and see if there are any posts about that. I think I saw one from Vinayaka.

 

[shunyadragon]

So your idea about how the world's problems will be solved is by people embracing the universal? Can you tell me anything about what that means in practical terms, and how you think that will solve the world's problems?

You appear to be too demanding for an immediate solution, which is difficult to respond.

The solution of the problems reminds me of the old story about mice dealing with a sat "Who is going to bell the cat." The principle's of the Baha'i Faith are relevant to the solution, and they were adapted by the UN including the international elective process, but the world in general today does not support the UN. Slowly some of the principles are being implemented, such as the social and legal equality of women, and the Baha'i Faith was the first religion to ban all kinds of slavery. The harmony of science and religion is sort being accepted by many, but remains rejected by many believers in ancient tribal religions.

An example of a Baha'i principle of protecting world peace is that when a tyrant rises up and attacks other nations like Russia attacking Ukraine the world should rise up in unity and defeat the aggressor, but at present the world is failing.

I once thought that education was the solution, but has not brought about the necessary change, though it has helped. Many well educated believers still reject science and claing to ancient tribal paradigms.

As far as how we can change the paradigm of tribalism and the ancient tribal religions that is difficult to know. Time well tell if the growing crisis of ancient tribalism will result in a world catastrophe indicated as a possibility in the Baha'i writings will result in humanity waking up and changing.

Presenting the problems and the principles needed to resolve the world crisis is the first step.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't suppose anyone is interested in what I think how the tribalism will be reduced some day, and how anyone who wants to can help. Also, how to help reduce the damage for as long as it keeps happening and even getting worse, which I think will be far into the future.

(later) On second thought, I don't actually want to discuss my ideas about it. I posted that in a moment of weakness. Sorry.

I would be interested though, in other people's ideas about it, if anyone wants to post any. If anyone thinks that the tribalism will stop some day, how will that happen, and what can people do to help? Also, how can people help reduce the damage for as long as it keeps happening? I'll go back and see if there are any posts about that. I think I saw one from Vinayaka.

I believe this is an unnecessary negative view of the world issues of tribalism, and not constructive in a dialogue,

 

[Vinayaka]

All the religions have their solution. Like the Born-Again Christians... "Repent, repent... For the Lord Jesus is coming soon." And their belief says that Jesus will annihilate the evil Kings and rulers of the world and establish God's kingdom on Earth.

Establishing God's kingdom on earth isn't really part of the Hindu view at all. It's an assumption by Abrahamism, that doesn't apply to other paradigms. In Hinduism our goal is for each soul, one at a time, to get to the point spiritually where the soul no longer needs to return. Think of a glass of water (earth), Shiva (or Brahman becoming manifest) dropping one drop more in, and as each drop comes in, one goes out. The earth was never meant to be perfected. It's a school, where souls evolve. It's the perfect school, because it provides souls with the opportunity to be embodied, and to learn, learn, and learn some more, until such time as you've learned enough to not need to return ... a graduation of sorts.

So, I would ask, in response to your first sentence: Solution to what? We Hindus don't need a solution, as we already have it ... follow dharma, and you (as a soul) move on. The world is perfect, just as it is, as a classroom for evolution. How can we learn to avoid war, if wars don't exist? How can we learn not to be a bigot if bigotry never existed? So we watch, we make decisions, we evolve, fully knowing all other souls are evolving as well, but are on different stages of that.

Fundamentally different paradigms!

 

[shunyadragon]

Establishing God's kingdom on earth isn't really part of the Hindu view at all. It's an assumption by Abrahamism, that doesn't apply to other paradigms. In Hinduism our goal is for each soul, one at a time, to get to the point spiritually where the soul no longer needs to return. Think of a glass of water (earth), Shiva (or Brahman becoming manifest) dropping one drop more in, and as each drop comes in, one goes out. The earth was never meant to be perfected. It's a school, where souls evolve. It's the perfect school, because it provides souls with the opportunity to be embodied, and to learn, learn, and learn some more, until such time as you've learned enough to not need to return ... a graduation of sorts.

So, I would ask, in response to your first sentence: Solution to what? We Hindus don't need a solution, as we already have it ... follow dharma, and you (as a soul) move on. The world is perfect, just as it is, as a classroom for evolution. How can we learn to avoid war, if wars don't exist? How can we learn not to be a bigot if bigotry never existed? So we watch, we make decisions, we evolve, fully knowing all other souls are evolving as well, but are on different stages of that.

Fundamentally different paradigms!

This view, as with the individual Abrahamic religions neglect the universal issues of humanity. It only focuses on your own individual cultural view of the journey of the soul.

In this view, like all ancient religions, you offer no constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This view, as with the individual Abrahamic religions neglect the universal issues of humanity. It only focuses on your own individual cultural view of the journey of the soul.

In this view, like all ancient religions, you offer no constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole.

Proselytizing is not constructive dialogue, and the belief that the world would be better if everyone shared your religion is not a "solution for humanity."

 

[Link]

The Quran is a realistic. It did advise a unity even with polytheistic people and live and let live policy:

فَلِذَٰلِكَ فَادْعُ ۖ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَقُلْ آمَنْتُ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنْ كِتَابٍ ۖ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ ۖ لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ ۖ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ | So summon to this [unity of religion], and be steadfast, just as you have been commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say, ‘I believe in whatever Book Allah has sent down. I have been commanded to do justice among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. Our deeds belong to us and your deeds belong to you. There is no quarrel between us and you. Allah will bring us together and toward Him is the destination.’ | Ash-Shura : 15

But a lot of the Quran is about the aftermath when such advice didn't happen.

The reality right now we are living in the end time where Satan rules a hidden society known as Magog (who follow Gog who Satan is direct companion to) in the scriptures, and they have successfully taken every high place of authority and control. They must be brought down from every high place or the world will never know peace.

Those who either knowing or heedlessly are of their forces and side, will be in hell forever. If ignorant, they should've sought truth and knowledge and if knowingly, then even worse, to support such an evil people.

 

[Niatero]

The thread itself can be a starting point of issues beyond our individual beliefs.

I think maybe I misunderstood this. I thought you meant that this could be a starting point for discussing how to solve the problem of tribalism. What did you mean? This thread can be a starting point of issues beyond our individual beliefs, in what way?

 

[Niatero]

In this view, like all ancient religions, you offer no constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole.

I'm trying to find out what constructive dialogue you are offering for solutions of humanity. In one post you said "I believe the thread addresses the problem of tribalism as opposed to a universal perspective as in my post #61. Please note number 6." Number 6 says "the dominance of our inherited tribal nature may be Achilles Heal and the means of our end unless we can change and embrace the greater universal." Is that all of your constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole, and the problem of tribalism, or is there more?

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm trying to find out what constructive dialogue you are offering for solutions of humanity. In one post you said "I believe the thread addresses the problem of tribalism as opposed to a universal perspective as in my post #61. Please note number 6." Number 6 says "the dominance of our inherited tribal nature may be Achilles Heal and the means of our end unless we can change and embrace the greater universal." Is that all of your constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole, and the problem of tribalism, or is there more?

Ancient and cultural tribalism is at root of many is not most of the problems in the world. I do not believe your reading my posts fully in terms of the nature of the human issues and possible solutions. Is there more?!?!!? This problem is the elephant in the room as far as the what we have to deal with in the world.

 

[Niatero]

I'm working on a list of ideas in this thread for solving the problem of tribalism.
- Stop believing that we are "us vs them."
- Confine our wishes to harm in thoughts only.
- Treat all other people as if we were part of one "human" group, and support efforts to encourage that.
- Embrace what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.
- Honest dialogue and actually listening to other people.
- Practice ahimsa and work towards harmony between religions.
- Compromise beliefs for the sake of peace and unity.
- An attitude that we are all on different paths but still heading in the same direction and heading for the same place.
- Bring Magog down from every high place.

If anyone sees anything that I've missed, I would be glad for you to post it.

 

[Niatero]

I do not believe your reading my posts fully in terms of the nature of the human issues and possible solutions.

Okay, so tell me what I've missed that you have said about possible solutions. Just now I combed the thread, and the only possible solution that I could find in your posts was "embrace the greater universal."

 

[Niatero]

Establishing God's kingdom on earth isn't really part of the Hindu view at all. It's an assumption by Abrahamism, that doesn't apply to other paradigms. In Hinduism our goal is for each soul, one at a time, to get to the point spiritually where the soul no longer needs to return. Think of a glass of water (earth), Shiva (or Brahman becoming manifest) dropping one drop more in, and as each drop comes in, one goes out. The earth was never meant to be perfected. It's a school, where souls evolve. It's the perfect school, because it provides souls with the opportunity to be embodied, and to learn, learn, and learn some more, until such time as you've learned enough to not need to return ... a graduation of sorts.

So, I would ask, in response to your first sentence: Solution to what? We Hindus don't need a solution, as we already have it ... follow dharma, and you (as a soul) move on. The world is perfect, just as it is, as a classroom for evolution. How can we learn to avoid war, if wars don't exist? How can we learn not to be a bigot if bigotry never existed? So we watch, we make decisions, we evolve, fully knowing all other souls are evolving as well, but are on different stages of that.

Fundamentally different paradigms!

Isn't there anything in your view about caring for other people and for nature, and cooperating with other people in service to others and to society, as part of growing spiritually?

Thinking about what the Bhagavad Gita says about people playing their roles in society, couldn't working for a better world be part of the training for spiritual growth, at least for some people? And couldn't cooperating with them be part of that training for others, even if they don't see a need for it?

(later) Even though what people are fighting for doesn't really matter, Krishna advises Arjuna to fulfil his role in the battle. Isn't there anything in your view about a social role? Or doesn't everyone have a social role, as part of their spiritual growth? Also, aren't there any Hindu teachers that you respect who promote working for a better world for all people? If there are, what reasons do they give?

 

[Vinayaka]

Isn't there anything in your view about caring for other people and for nature, and cooperating with other people in service to others and to society, as part of growing spiritually?

Thinking about what the Bhagavad Gita says about people playing their roles in society, couldn't working for a better world be part of the training for spiritual growth, at least for some people? And couldn't cooperating with them be part of that training for others, even if they don't see a need for it?

Absolutely there is. It's all over the place. But we're realistic, in knowing that the only person you can change in that regard is yourself, with the perhaps side effect of being an example for others, hence changing them. It's just that we don't see 'God's kingdom' on earth' as a natural outcome, because Siva is emanating young souls all the time. Our goal, with regard to nature, is to ensure that the school (Earth) is still here as we (souls) need a fire planet to evolve. They have instinctive drives, desire for fame, wealth, etc. Individuals arise out of that, and in so doing become caring loving individuals, who actually DO good, not just talk about it. Very different paradigm, and I've had little success in explaining that fact to intellectual Abrahamics set in their ways. Mostly I have given up on that, but since this thread has some new people on RF like you, I re-entered it for a bit. Best wishes in gaining clarity.

Yes, we need to co-operate with people (and do) ... those who are willing participants, and not in the 'us versus them' paradigms.

 

[Niatero]

Absolutely there is. It's all over the place. But we're realistic, in knowing that the only person you can change in that regard is yourself, with the perhaps side effect of being an example for others, hence changing them. It's just that we don't see 'God's kingdom' on earth' as a natural outcome, because Siva is emanating young souls all the time. Our goal, with regard to nature, is to ensure that the school (Earth) is still here as we (souls) need a fire planet to evolve. They have instinctive drives, desire for fame, wealth, etc. Individuals arise out of that, and in so doing become caring loving individuals, who actually DO good, not just talk about it. Very different paradigm, and I've had little success in explaining that fact to intellectual Abrahamics set in their ways. Mostly I have given up on that, but since this thread has some new people on RF like you, I re-entered it for a bit. Best wishes in gaining clarity.

Yes, we need to co-operate with people (and do) ... those who are willing participants, and not in the 'us versus them' paradigms.

Thanks. I added another question to that post while you were responding. Are there Hindu teachers that you respect who promote working for a better world? If so, what reasons do they give, in the context of what you're saying about the world being perfect as it is? Is it something about up and down cycles, and participating in that?

 

[Niatero]

Here's an answer from ChatGPT 3.5 to my question about Hindu teachers promoting working for a better world:

Yes, there are teachers within Hinduism who promote working for a better world. One such revered figure is Mahatma Gandhi, who is known for his emphasis on nonviolent resistance and social reform. Gandhi’s teachings on ahimsa (nonviolence) and his advocacy for social justice have inspired countless individuals to work towards creating a more just and equitable society.

Other influential Hindu teachers who have promoted the idea of working for a better world include Swami Vivekananda, who emphasized the importance of service to society and the upliftment of the less fortunate. Vivekananda believed that service to humanity was a key aspect of spiritual practice and that individuals should strive to make a positive impact on the world around them.

While Hinduism does teach that the ultimate goal of human life is self-realization and liberation from the cycle of birth and death (moksha), this does not mean that worldly concerns are irrelevant. Many Hindu teachings emphasize the interconnectedness of all beings and the importance of living a moral and ethical life. Working for a better world is seen as a way to practice dharma (righteousness) and contribute to the well-being of all living beings.

Some reasons that Hindu teachers may give for working for a better world, even if the world is seen as ultimately perfect for the progress of the soul, include:

1. Compassion and empathy: Hindu teachings emphasize the importance of cultivating compassion and empathy towards all beings. Working for a better world is seen as a way to express this compassion and alleviate the suffering of others.

2. Karma and dharma: The concepts of karma (the law of cause and effect) and dharma (righteous duty) are central to Hindu ethics. By working for a better world and promoting positive actions, individuals can accumulate good karma and fulfill their dharma.

3. Seva (selfless service): Many Hindu traditions emphasize the importance of selfless service (seva) as a way to cultivate humility, detachment, and spiritual growth. Working for a better world can be seen as a form of seva and a way to purify the mind and heart.

Overall, while the ultimate goal of Hindu spiritual practice may be liberation from samsara (the cycle of birth and death), this does not preclude the importance of working towards creating a more harmonious and just world for all beings. Hindu teachings emphasize the interconnectedness of all beings and the importance of living a life of virtue and service to others.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks. I added another question to that post while you were responding. Are there Hindu teachers that you respect who promote working for a better world? If so, what reasons do they give, in the context of what you're saying about the world being perfect as it is? Is it something about up and down cycles, and participating in that?

My own Guru spoke at the United Nations about reducing violence on the planet by reducing violence in the home. The idea is that children learn violence at home, and if we can get at the real cause (early in life in the home) we can reduce it. That first slap, that first belittling with words, is where it all starts. Of course not everyone will see that connection, as disconnect for a lot of things is rampant on this planet. Many other teachers, like Sai Baba, Amma, and more have charitable sides to their organizations. So do many Hindu temples. Being charitable is all part of growing up spiritually. But we're humble about it generally, and don't go around bragging.

 

[Secret Chief]

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

Careful, rule 8.

"Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching."

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, so tell me what I've missed that you have said about possible solutions. Just now I combed the thread, and the only possible solution that I could find in your posts was "embrace the greater universal."

Post #82. You demand too much and do not think for yourself based on what I have posted.

 

[shunyadragon]

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

That is everyone's free will choice, so I just pray that 'May God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven'. I have no control over any of this, but living the life myself.

Regards Tony

I do not consider the solution that easy. We do not have a magic wand,