Why ‘us vs them’?

[CG Didymus]

Proselytizing is not constructive dialogue, and the belief that the world would be better if everyone shared your religion is not a "solution for humanity."

Yeah, it has an "us vs them" built into it. Their "solution" is for all people to one day realize that the Baha'i Faith is the truth and whatever Baha'u'llah said is what we have to do.

Here's my rant about all of this... With you, I'm probably preaching to the choir. So, this is more for the Baha'is.

Some of us who have learned a little about the Baha'i Faith and already disagree with some of their beliefs and claims. How do we unite with a religion like that?

It's like if a Christian sect said that all the world can live in peace if only we all join them... They say to love one another, don't lie, cheat or steal and all kinds of things that most people would agree with. But then they add... Believe Jesus is the only way, that he is God, that he physically rose from the dead, that the Bible is the inerrant word of God and so on. Believing all of those things ain't going to happen.

That's very similar to what Baha'is preach. We are one human family. Men and women are equal. There are not several races. There is only one race, the human race. Sure, great... I believe!

But then there's the other stuff. There's only one God. All religions are one. And... our religion, the Baha'i Faith is the newest religion from this one God. All the old religions have, unfortunately, gotten off track. But Baha'u'llah has brought us new teachings that correct all those things the other religions have gotten wrong. And he's brought us new laws for us all to follow.

If we'd only believe in him, we could all live in peace and unity as one big happy family... obeying and living by all the laws and rules and moral codes that he has given us.

Just with his moral codes, he has already created an "us and them." No sex outside of marriage. No gay sex. No drugs or alcohol. I'd imagine a few people on Earth live by those rules already. But will everybody? Religions can't force people to be "pure". They tried. They killed adulterers and gays. But it doesn't help when so many religious leaders do those same things... but in private.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The only people we should ever be against are those who advocate for the destruction of the rights of others, or who actually perpetrate such.

Are you American? If so, that appears to be half the country, which is severely divided about in half, half of which are hostile to peace, democracy, rule of law, church-state separation and egalitarianism. The right utterly detest the left. It's an existential battle there now. This is no time for kumbaya and no chance for that.

it is apparent many here do not want to consider the solutions given by Baha'u'llah, so why offer them anymore?

Good idea. It's not been appealing in the past and won't be now if you repeat it.

Reciting everybody just get along isn't a solution. That accomplishes nothing. The Christians say the same - just do what Jesus advises and love one another. That also accomplishes nothing. We don't need to be told that. We need answers as to how to make people want to do that, especially given the tendencies of authoritarians including theocrats to want to divide people and to be so successful at it.

The solution is easy. The entirety of humanity could bring the most great peace about tomorrow by embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.

And there it is. If everybody would just be good, everybody would be good.

Most people aren't interested in religious solutions (or only their religion, which is rarely Baha'ism) and don't want to be led by others claiming to speak for gods. We've seen how little that has accomplished. In the States, their god wants women subjugated, and so they subjugate them. Humanism has much better ideas than any religion, but humanists are opposed at every turn by those who prefer to concentrate wealth, power, and privilege on the backs of others. The solutions we need are not how to structure society, but how to get past these formidable forces working against benefiting humanity.

How about putting your holy book down and working for the secularist and humanist agencies in the world - NATO, the UN, Amnesty International, Greenpeace, Doctors Without Borders, and the like? The Baha'i are like airport Hare Krishnas with their vacant smiles and who accomplishing nothing:

"Members try to spread Krishna consciousness primarily by singing the Hare Krishna mantra in public places and by selling Indian spiritual books transcribed from their original languages and published in English by the movement's founder, Prabhupada."

How did that work out? The Baha'i are no more effective.

 

[Spice]

This view, as with the individual Abrahamic religions neglect the universal issues of humanity. It only focuses on your own individual cultural view of the journey of the soul.

In this view, like all ancient religions, you offer no constructive dialogue for solutions of humanity and the world as a whole.

But I think it does. As the individual souls evolve they are influencing the whole. So though the challenges of the necessary lessons are not eliminated, they do change to more civilized or humanitarian degrees, setting up new challenges to be learned from.
ie. The equality of women and the elimination of slavery are two examples. Neither are at perfection, but the journey is remarkable, and the lessons are presented in a new perspective in most instances. In the best situations women still need to gain equal pay across the board, and all workers still strive for a more balanced work/life expectation from employers.

 

[CG Didymus]

Stop believing that we are "us vs them."

Sometimes "We" or "us" have something we know is right. But other people, "them", keep opposing us.

An example is the abortion issue in the U.S. We know that we are right. But they just won't listen. Both sides think they are the "we". And neither of them is going to give in. And Christians, the conservative ones, are right in the middle of it. They know they are right. That little fetus has a soul.

I'd imagine Baha'is would believe that also. If so, that makes it "God's people" against what? The "ungodly"? They're never going to stop fighting for what they believe is the truth.

Treat all other people as if we were part of one "human" group, and support efforts to encourage that.

That is a major part of the Baha'i Faith. They say, "We are the leaves of one tree. Flowers of one garden." And they do try and apply those teachings.

Honest dialogue and actually listening to other people.

Another thing that Baha'is believe in. They are big on "consultation"... at least between themselves. But...

- Compromise beliefs for the sake of peace and unity.
- An attitude that we are all on different paths but still heading in the same direction and heading for the same place.

Can they honestly consult with non-Baha'is? I don't see them compromising their beliefs. And I don't think they really see the other religions as "other" paths to the same place. They are against some of the beliefs of most all religions. But their feeling is that those beliefs were not legitimate beliefs... but were added into the religion by people, People who misinterpreted the true teachings of the founding prophet.

But I do believe that those people that do compromise, or don't take their beliefs so seriously or literally, can get along with people in the other religions. Especially those in the other religions that do the same. Now Baha'is get along with them. But... when it comes down to it, will they compromise?

Actually, I've known some that have. But they weren't super-believers. They were very liberal in their beliefs and believed in the principals of the Baha'i Faith but didn't get into all the heavier, dogmatic beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. But then... it could be questioned how deep of a Baha'i were they? Because some of those people dropped out.

Anyway, awesome discussing this stuff with you.

 

[shunyadragon]

But I think it does. As the individual souls evolve they are influencing the whole. So though the challenges of the necessary lessons are not eliminated, they do change to more civilized or humanitarian degrees, setting up new challenges to be learned from.
ie. The equality of women and the elimination of slavery are two examples. Neither are at perfection, but the journey is remarkable, and the lessons are presented in a new perspective in most instances. In the best situations women still need to gain equal pay across the board, and all workers still strive for a more balanced work/life expectation from employers.

It only addresses the 'belief' of the journey of individual souls from one religious cultural perspective and not the universal issues of humanity

 

[shunyadragon]

The concept of the tribal problem of us vs them is a problem universal with the history humanity, and the initial post and poll does not only address the Baha'i beliefs Baha'i principles do address the problem.

The problem ancient tribalism today is is a real threat of world violence on a cataclysm scale, Wars in recent history have progressively in creased in intensity, casualties and degree of destruction.

 

[Spice]

It only addresses the 'belief' of the journey of individual souls from one religious cultural perspective and not the universal issues of humanity

But this belief is held in other religious cultures, just in smaller numbers.
ie. Kabbalah Judaism.

Judaism (in general) speaks of "the world to come" without specifics on how or when that world will be, so it's an old concept that has held true even in Abrahamic thought.

It does, IMO, directly effects universal humanity, especially as we become more global. It starts with what the Christians refer to as The Golden Rule. It is a staple of all religions and non-religious for humanitarian living.

 

[Spice]

The concept of the tribal problem of us vs them is a problem universal with the history humanity, and the initial post and poll does not only address the Baha'i beliefs Baha'i principles do address the problem.

The problem ancient tribalism today is is a real threat of world violence on a cataclysm scale, Wars in recent history have progressively in creased in intensity, casualties and degree of destruction.

Agreed. But rather than striving to eliminate us versus them, why don't we strive towards us loves and accepts them.

No one wants to give up who they are!

Why can't we learn to see our version of God in the hearts of all mankind, even if just a tiny speck, and embrace that first and foremost over all else?

We have no power to change anyone other than ourselves.

Namaste

 

[Spice]

Absolutely there is. It's all over the place. But we're realistic, in knowing that the only person you can change in that regard is yourself, with the perhaps side effect of being an example for others, hence changing them. It's just that we don't see 'God's kingdom' on earth' as a natural outcome, because Siva is emanating young souls all the time. Our goal, with regard to nature, is to ensure that the school (Earth) is still here as we (souls) need a fire planet to evolve. They have instinctive drives, desire for fame, wealth, etc. Individuals arise out of that, and in so doing become caring loving individuals, who actually DO good, not just talk about it. Very different paradigm, and I've had little success in explaining that fact to intellectual Abrahamics set in their ways. Mostly I have given up on that, but since this thread has some new people on RF like you, I re-entered it for a bit. Best wishes in gaining clarity.

Yes, we need to co-operate with people (and do) ... those who are willing participants, and not in the 'us versus them' paradigms.

Please share whenever you are comfortable doing so. Per my profile I may appear not to be new, but I have been inactive for most of my membership time and I'm here again to gain more perspective from diversity. I have no one-faith home, but rather a reap-what-is-good from all fields approach, and I thoroughly appreciate ALL who share in open, honest, peaceful fellowship.

Namaste (I adopted this long ago)

 

[Vinayaka]

Please share whenever you are comfortable doing so. Per my profile I may appear not to be new, but I have been inactive for most of my membership time and I'm here again to gain more perspective from diversity. I have no one-faith home, but rather a reap-what-is-good from all fields approach, and I thoroughly appreciate ALL who share in open, honest, peaceful fellowship.

Namaste (I adopted this long ago)

Share what?

 

[Spice]

Share what?

The tenets of your religious beliefs.

 

[Secret Chief]

But rather than striving to eliminate us versus them, why don't we strive towards us loves and accepts them.

I don't think we can eliminate us vs them, however much we might like to or endeavour to. We are apes that have evolved and survived by separating us from them; our in-group vs the potentially threatening and competing out-group. We tend towards diviseness to ensure we are in the "correct" group. Survival of "us" (resources - land and food) may be dependent on elimination of "them."

 

[Spice]

I don't think we can eliminate us vs them, however much we might like to or endeavour to. We are apes that have evolved and survived by separating us from them; our in-group vs the potentially threatening and competing out-group. We tend towards diviseness to ensure we are in the "correct" group. Survival of "us" (resources - land and food) may be dependent on elimination of "them."

Without a doubt it is a struggle. I face it everyday in my real life. But it's a good battle to step into. . .there's never an end, but always a gain.

 

[Vinayaka]

The tenets of your religious beliefs.

You want a book? My beliefs would be summarized by Subramuniyaswami's trilogy, Dancing, Living, and Merging with Siva. All Himalayan Academy books are free on-line as downloads. The sampradaya is the Nandinatha sampradaya of monistic Saiva Siddhantha, within Hinduism. You asked, otherwise I wouldn't have said much at all. Best wishes. But in reality, there is a lot more in the actions that we encourage, most of it having to do with how we behave, and service work (especially for me now, as I'm retired.)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Careful, rule 8.

"Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching."

I am a black and white person, when it is a logical fact, it is a logical fact and stated as such.

I am not forcing you or even compelling you to accept the statement.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not consider the solution that easy. We do not have a magic wand,

No we do not, but the solution is as easy, as it was written down.

The complexity is our own free will and actions in contrast to the given solutions.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

I am a black and white person, when it is a logical fact, it is a logical fact and stated as such.

Rubbish. "embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah" is no more than your subjective opinion. It's not even in the starting blocks for being "a logical fact."

 

[danieldemol]

Logic has little to nothing to do with allegedly revealed religions in my view.

So called "revealed" religions are about accepting the dictates of a person you have decided speaks for your God even when it contradicts logic to do so as I see it.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Quran is a realistic. It did advise a unity even with polytheistic people and live and let live policy:

فَلِذَٰلِكَ فَادْعُ ۖ وَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۖ وَقُلْ آمَنْتُ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنْ كِتَابٍ ۖ وَأُمِرْتُ لِأَعْدِلَ بَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمْ ۖ لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ ۖ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ ۖ اللَّهُ يَجْمَعُ بَيْنَنَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ | So summon to this [unity of religion], and be steadfast, just as you have been commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say, ‘I believe in whatever Book Allah has sent down. I have been commanded to do justice among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. Our deeds belong to us and your deeds belong to you. There is no quarrel between us and you. Allah will bring us together and toward Him is the destination.’ | Ash-Shura : 15

But a lot of the Quran is about the aftermath when such advice didn't happen.

The reality right now we are living in the end time where Satan rules a hidden society known as Magog (who follow Gog who Satan is direct companion to) in the scriptures, and they have successfully taken every high place of authority and control. They must be brought down from every high place or the world will never know peace.

Those who either knowing or heedlessly are of their forces and side, will be in hell forever. If ignorant, they should've sought truth and knowledge and if knowingly, then even worse, to support such an evil people.

To have a voice for peace and unity coming from an Islamic background is awesome. I know it's difficult for people in a religion to stay strong and true to their beliefs, but also allow for others to stay true to beliefs that are different and contradictory to yours.

 

[CG Didymus]

Logic has little to nothing to do with allegedly revealed religions in my view.

So called "revealed" religions are about accepting the dictates of a person you have decided speaks for your God even when it contradicts logic to do so as I see it.

And to again look at the track record of some of the "revealed" religions... If some of the major religions didn't use force, they wouldn't have become major religions. What did logic have to do with it? Logic didn't matter. It was just take it on faith and believe.