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Why Adam's Sin Became the Downfall for Us All

james bond

Well-Known Member
Nope.. Christian but I know a little about Islam. They don't believe in blood sacrifice or original sin..

Original sin wasn't Christian doctrine until the 3rd century AD.

What I was taught was OS is defined as “the moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin, resulting in a sinful disposition manifesting itself in habitually sinful behavior.” The evidence for it is we cannot help ourselves but to commit sin. We are all sinful creatures despite our religion.

Where do you get it wasn't Christian doctrine until the 3rd century? Original sin is an interesting concept and one I believe in, but not sure when it was explained. There are different views of it as you know.

Why was Adam and Eve expelled from paradise and how did death came into the world?

I go (but don't think it explains when):

https://www.theopedia.com/original-sin

What Is the Biblical Evidence for Original Sin?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
What I was taught was OS is defined as “the moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin, resulting in a sinful disposition manifesting itself in habitually sinful behavior.” The evidence for it is we cannot help ourselves but to commit sin. We are all sinful creatures despite our religion.

Where do you get it wasn't Christian doctrine until the 3rd century? Original sin is an interesting concept and one I believe in, but not sure when it was explained. There are different views of it as you know.

Why was Adam and Eve expelled from paradise and how did death came into the world?

I go (but don't think it explains when):

https://www.theopedia.com/original-sin

What Is the Biblical Evidence for Original Sin?

From your link.

There are wide-ranging disagreements among Christian groups as to the exact understanding of this doctrine, with some so-called Christian groups denying it altogether. Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, and Islam acknowledge that the introduction of sin into the human race affected the subsequent environment for mankind, but deny any inherited guilt or necessary corruption of man's nature.

Historical development
It was largely through Augustine's arguments against the Pelagians that the doctrine of "original sin" was formalized into Christian orthodoxy.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Today's population fits Noah's family history:

The population has to double thirty times from 8 people in order to reach today's population of over 8 billion people. It has grown exponentially

Population growth since Flood - creation.com.

The population does not fit 200 years old human kind with no huge natural disasters.
sounds like a topic of it's own

when I was just leaving grade school
the teacher announced 3billion as the total then

40yrs later.....it doubled.....6billion

if I live to the age of my dearly departed grandparents it will double again
12billion

this planet has enough chemistry for 9billion

THE END IS NEAR.....!!!!!
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Why was Adam and Eve expelled from paradise and how did death came into the world?
the garden event was intended to sway the spirit of Man
breathe that breath into him

it worked

we NEED to be that creature curious about the afterlife
wanting to know....even if death IS the consequence for the acquisition

the apple trick was a test

Man has been such a creature ever since

as for sin.....
I find it notable that Spanish uses the word as.....without

and we do live …..without
born without God
live without God
and likely to die......without God
death was always a part of the scheme of things

THEN....God and heaven come to see whatever stands from the dust
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Confusing, isn't it?

Angels: A Study in the Scriptures
www.dianedew.com/angels.htm
VII. What rank or place in God's creation do angels hold? A. Angels are not greater than man. 1. They are ministering servants of the elect of God. Psalms 104:4 Hebrews 1:7, 14 2. They will be judged by men. 1 Corinthians 6:3 3. Man was created a higher order than the angels. Psalms 8:4-5 (Actually, the word here translated "angels" is the Hebrew

Super confusing. When I read the Bible I always got the idea that angels are higher than man and that they only judge the angels because they become brothers with Christ who is higher than all creation.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Super confusing. When I read the Bible I always got the idea that angels are higher than man and that they only judge the angels because they become brothers with Christ who is higher than all creation.

Original sin is a third century construct.

Look here.

Pelagianism - Theopedia.com
https://www.theopedia.com/pelagianism
Pelagianism. Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall.It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to ...
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Free will was given to Adam so he could choose between the love and truth offered by God the Creator or lies and deceptive hatred presented by the enemy. Adam was not punished for using his free will, rather for choosing to believe lies instead of trusting God who had lovingly provided for all his needs. It was not punishment as much as the reality that lies always lead to destructive consequences and situations.

Although I agree when we lie it will lead to bad consequences, your interpretation of this story doesn't seem right to me.

Here's my interpretation of the story. The state of Adams mind before and after biting the apple is the point of the story. Prior to biting the Apple, Adam was blissfully ignorant. This is what happens with children. In child's mind they are not separate from their parents. A child's world is experienced as perfection. Everything is pure love and all their needs are met.

After biting the apple Adam now sees himself separate from God. This is the point when a child realizes they are separate from their parents. This the point where the child begins to question why is everything in the World full of suffering. This the point where a child sees his parents as weak, petty, and full of limitations. After biting the apple Adam has lost his child's innocence and oneness with his parent figure or God.

When most people discover they have imperfections as young adults they react in different ways. Many people will hate their parents, hate themselves, and hate God. The spiritual journey most people take in their lives is finding peace with all this hatred of our own imperfections. Once people find peace with the hatred of imperfections in themselves, their parent's, and the way God created the Universe, then some people will return back to Eden in a sense. Although the innocence of youth can never be regained, people who make peace with the tree of knowledge can at least appreciate slivers of Eden's perfection as they occur in their own lives in the present.

Religion serves a purpose in our lives. These stories are intended to provide a map of who we are and how we are to live our life. People get hung up on the details and literal truth. The Bible's main message is having morality is important and how one can return back to God and experience Eden again. The story is not about the details of a talking snake or what type of fruit tree was in the garden.

The thread title is a good hook and troll comment. Although everyone falls from Eden, everyone loses their innocence, having imperfections is not a sin. Nobody is God on Earth.

How we respond to being expelled from Eden, or losing our childhood innocence, is up to each of us to choose.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You have no physical evidence for your religious beliefs

I'm an atheist, I have no religious beliefs.
I don't need evidence for beliefs I don't hold.

while I have the physical evidence of the Earth being 3/4 covered with water from Noah's Flood.

No, you do not.

With Adam and Eve, the evidence is we have the human nature of good and evil.

No. We have your beliefs about the human nature. Your mere beliefs aren't facts just because you believe it.


Did you even read that article?
It doesn't say what you think it says.
In addition, as the dude himself says in the blog post, he's not a biologist.

It reeks of confirmation bias from beginning to end.
He also manages to completely misrepresent what "mitochondrial eve" and "y-chromosome" adam are REALLY all about.

Hint: no geneticist says that they were the only humans around. Moreover, both individuals lived thousands of years apart. They never met or knew eachother. By the time one of them was born, the other was dead for millenia already.

Human population, as genetics show, was NEVER smaller then a couple of thousand individuals.

Perhaps you should get your information from actual scientific sources instead of blog posts with obvious religious bias.

What do you have for abiogenesis?

*I* don't have anything, as I'm not a bio-chemist nore am I involved in that research.
The field of abiogenesis has a couple of interesting hypothesis. But why does that matter?


Spontaneous generation was proven pseudoscience already by Dr. Louis Pasteur.

So?

and the same applies for abiogenesis

No.
Abiogenesis is an ongoing study, a work in progress. Nobody so far has refuted it.
You are welcome to cite scientific papers in which you feel this happened though.

Don't forget to notify the many abiogenesis researchers around the world that they are apparantly beating a dead horse....


When are the real science deniers going to give up on Miller-Urey and primordial soup?

I bet you can't even explain what exactly the Miller-Urey experiment was about and what it resulted in.

Also, why are you yapping about this?
None of this has any relation to the validity or merrit of your religious creation myths.

In fact, for the sake of argument, I'll bend over backwards and pretend as if all of modern science is demonstrated wrong. Abiogenesis, evolution, plate tectonics, germ theory, atomic theory, ... let's just pretend it's all false for a second.

This doesn't advance your creationist myth for even an inch.
You still have all your work cut out for you.

You like to pretend as if if science is wrong, then your bible is correct by default.
That is, off course, hilariously invalid.

For your bible nonsense to be accepted as valid and accurate, you have to actually DEMONSTRATE these claims. You need evidence in support of those claims.

Showing idea X wrong doesn't make idea Y advance one bit. You still need to demonstrate idea Y.
You need actualy positive evidene in support of your claims.

We've been show by the scientific method that it's not scientific at all. Water is a universal solvent, so while it's necessary for life, one doesn't want it for abiogenesis. We also don't want O2 (oxygen) for Miller-Urey. The atheists and their scientists make up crap just to fit their religion.

Your ignorance on the subject is showing.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Although I agree when we lie it will lead to bad consequences, your interpretation of this story doesn't seem right to me.

Here's my interpretation of the story. The state of Adams mind before and after biting the apple is the point of the story. Prior to biting the Apple, Adam was blissfully ignorant. This is what happens with children. In child's mind they are not separate from their parents. A child's world is experienced as perfection. Everything is pure love and all their needs are met.

After biting the apple Adam now sees himself separate from God. This is the point when a child realizes they are separate from their parents. This the point where the child begins to question why is everything in the World full of suffering. This the point where a child sees his parents as weak, petty, and full of limitations. After biting the apple Adam has lost his child's innocence and oneness with his parent figure or God.

When most people discover they have imperfections as young adults they react in different ways. Many people will hate their parents, hate themselves, and hate God. The spiritual journey most people take in their lives is finding peace with all this hatred of our own imperfections. Once people find peace with the hatred of imperfections in themselves, their parent's, and the way God created the Universe, then some people will return back to Eden in a sense. Although the innocence of youth can never be regained, people who make peace with the tree of knowledge can at least appreciate slivers of Eden's perfection as they occur in their own lives in the present.

Religion serves a purpose in our lives. These stories are intended to provide a map of who we are and how we are to live our life. People get hung up on the details and literal truth. The Bible's main message is having morality is important and how one can return back to God and experience Eden again. The story is not about the details of a talking snake or what type of fruit tree was in the garden.

The thread title is a good hook and troll comment. Although everyone falls from Eden, everyone loses their innocence, having imperfections is not a sin. Nobody is God on Earth.

How we respond to being expelled from Eden, or losing our childhood innocence, is up to each of us to choose.

Or it could be an allegory about the transition from hunter gatherers (trusting in God's providence) to agriculturists.

In the original myth the Garden was a playground for the gods with humans doing the work.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
It's definition for religion. We see atheism fits the definition. If the suit fits, then you should wear it. Atheism meets the criteria. If it isn't a religion, then all atheist groups should immediately start paying back taxes and put its leaders in prison for tax evasion.. The USG agrees that it is a religion.
Atheism Is Religion
This is a done deal.
Atheism is a religion - Conservapedia
Second, you don't know Michael Ruse?
"“Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint—and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it—the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
“… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.”National Post, pp. B1,B3,B7 May 13, 2000.">1
Michael Ruse was professor of philosophy and zoology at the University of Guelph, Canada (recently moved to Florida), He was the leading anti-creationist philosopher whose (flawed) arguments seemed to convince the biased judge to rule against the Arkansas ‘balanced treatment’ (of creation and evolution in schools) bill in 1981/2. At the trial, he and the other the anti-creationists loftily dismissed the claim that evolution was an anti-god religion."
Michael Ruse: Evolution is a religion - creation.com
Thus, the laugh's are on your atheistic arguments

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in God or gods. The absence of something is NOT something.

However, most atheists are philosophical materialists. Philosophical materialism is a belief system built on a set of assumptions that are accepted by its believers as being true without any proof. When you challenge these assumptions they do not stand up well under scrutiny. So when you hear atheists talk and say things you do not like it's not because of their atheism. What you do not like is the assumptions they hold true based on their philosophical materialist beliefs.

Here are two good videos outlining why philosophical materialism is just as bad as any other dogma:


And


Science is a method of inquiry. Science as a belief system and worldview is the problem.
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
Strange that in most human cultures, blaming and/or punishing the children of those who have committed crimes is considered inhumane, or 'cruel and unusual.'
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
One of the most unfair things we hear is Adam's sin causing us to lose paradise and have all of humankind marked with original sin. That is, we are born of sin not of our doing.

Today, I want to discuss what Adam's sin did. We have paradise which God had created for us. If Adam was able to avoid his temptation, then we would all be living and experiencing paradise today. What was disappointing is it did not appear Adam and Eve was able to hold out for very long.

First and foremost, we find that God's nature is to hate and despise sin. He is holy, so he cannot be with sin. Thus, it wasn't just Adam and Even who was cast from the Garden of Eden, but God the Father himself. He left this universe and Earth and had to return to heaven. He could not stay. This meant we had become without God. Holy guacamole! Is there any way to fix this?

It also meant that Adam lost his dominion over Earth. He had given it to Satan who became "god of the Earth and prince of the power of the air."

Thus, this was a huge problem and the only future we had was a future without God and hell which was designed for Lucifer and his angels who rebelled against God. They had the free will to do so just like us.

the same free will that you will have in heaven?

ciao

- viole
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't need evidence for beliefs I don't hold.
by definition......belief needs no proving

so if you don't have belief …...you need not prove you don't
if you have belief.....you need not prove your belief
even with your evidence for belief you don't have......no one needs to believe you

and if the evidence I DO have for my beliefs fails to convince you.....
that's not my fault
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It's definition for religion.
What are you talking about? You yourself said:

"Here is the definition of atheism from dictionary.com."

which was followed by what you now say was a definition for "religion."

Sorry, but people who change horses mid-stream aren't worth having a discussion with.

Good bye

.

 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
One of the most unfair things we hear is Adam's sin causing us to lose paradise and have all of humankind marked with original sin. That is, we are born of sin not of our doing.

Today, I want to discuss what Adam's sin did. We have paradise which God had created for us. If Adam was able to avoid his temptation, then we would all be living and experiencing paradise today. What was disappointing is it did not appear Adam and Eve was able to hold out for very long.

First and foremost, we find that God's nature is to hate and despise sin. He is holy, so he cannot be with sin. Thus, it wasn't just Adam and Even who was cast from the Garden of Eden, but God the Father himself. He left this universe and Earth and had to return to heaven. He could not stay. This meant we had become without God. Holy guacamole! Is there any way to fix this?

It also meant that Adam lost his dominion over Earth. He had given it to Satan who became "god of the Earth and prince of the power of the air."

Thus, this was a huge problem and the only future we had was a future without God and hell which was designed for Lucifer and his angels who rebelled against God. They had the free will to do so just like us.
in the Genesis story the Elohim were creating a paradise based on materialism, much like Babel. You don't get intoduced to the most high God until Melchizedek.

Adam and Eve were scattered. Interesting aside, Babel was known for its gardens. It's folks were scattered.

We see this materialistic idea being confined to specific place on Earth in Genesis 2:8-9 . Why not all of Earth? Or the whole universe? Why sin in only this spot?
 
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