Why Adam's Sin Became the Downfall for Us All

[InChrist]

Although I agree when we lie it will lead to bad consequences, your interpretation of this story doesn't seem right to me.

Here's my interpretation of the story. The state of Adams mind before and after biting the apple is the point of the story. Prior to biting the Apple, Adam was blissfully ignorant. This is what happens with children. In child's mind they are not separate from their parents. A child's world is experienced as perfection. Everything is pure love and all their needs are met.

After biting the apple Adam now sees himself separate from God. This is the point when a child realizes they are separate from their parents. This the point where the child begins to question why is everything in the World full of suffering. This the point where a child sees his parents as weak, petty, and full of limitations. After biting the apple Adam has lost his child's innocence and oneness with his parent figure or God.

When most people discover they have imperfections as young adults they react in different ways. Many people will hate their parents, hate themselves, and hate God. The spiritual journey most people take in their lives is finding peace with all this hatred of our own imperfections. Once people find peace with the hatred of imperfections in themselves, their parent's, and the way God created the Universe, then some people will return back to Eden in a sense. Although the innocence of youth can never be regained, people who make peace with the tree of knowledge can at least appreciate slivers of Eden's perfection as they occur in their own lives in the present.

Religion serves a purpose in our lives. These stories are intended to provide a map of who we are and how we are to live our life. People get hung up on the details and literal truth. The Bible's main message is having morality is important and how one can return back to God and experience Eden again. The story is not about the details of a talking snake or what type of fruit tree was in the garden.

The thread title is a good hook and troll comment. Although everyone falls from Eden, everyone loses their innocence, having imperfections is not a sin. Nobody is God on Earth.

How we respond to being expelled from Eden, or losing our childhood innocence, is up to each of us to choose.

Interesting, but I don’t think your parent/ child analogy exactly works with the account of Adam/Eve and God.
First because the account in Genesis, although indicating A&E were innocent with regard to good and evil, they are not portrayed as children. Rather they are shown to have been created as adults who, not only experienced God’s love and care for them, but intelligently conversed with God daily.
Secondly, as intelligent beings they chose to disobey a simple and clear command, the only prohibition given them, to instead believe a blatant lie in order to satisfy a selfish desire.
I believe it this wrong motive of their heart/ mind and acting upon it which broke trust and relationship with God causing separation.

 

[Deeje]

A spiritual existence we can't really imagine which will come to be at the end of This World (far-post-Messianic era). Your place in The World To Come is determined by your actions in This World.

OK....so where is this spiritual existence to be lived in your view? The fact is that God originally intended that humans would live forever on earth. When I read Genesis, I cannot find a 'natural cause' of death. It is only mentioned as a penalty for disobedience.
Where did God say Adam would go when sentencing him for his disobedience?

Genesis 3:19...
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return." (Tanakh)

No mention of any kind of afterlife here....just a return to the dust, (elements of the earth) from which God had made him. Solomon confirmed this when he lamented that humans had no advantage over the animals in death...
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust." (Tanakh)

How are humans 'made in God's image' if they are mortal and have no advantage over the animals?
If, as he says...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 Tanakh)
How do you see that life lived? Where is "the world to come"?

In the Jewish view, why did God bar the way to "the tree of life"?
Genesis 3:22-24 tells us...
"Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever."

23 And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken.

24 And He drove the man out, and He stationed from the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life" (Tanakh)

It clearly states that the tree of life was the means that God had provided so that living forever could be enjoyed in mortal flesh, on earth in paradise conditions.....isn't that what is programmed into our hearts? Don't we all desire to live in paradise? Isn't death still the most foreign thing in our lives? We have no 'program' for it, nor are we equipped mentally or emotionally or physically to endure pain, trauma and injustice or suffering. They were never supposed to happen.

One reason I can think of is to limit our time on earth - if we have infinite time, we would both feel hopelessly stuck in a never-ending cycle of work and also may feel that there's no need to hurry and work because we have all the time in the world (based on this, I recall seeing that some Rabbis opinionated that God wanted Adam to sin - because Adam was hanging around the Garden and not working (as is clearly stated in Genesis that God created Man "...and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." - Gen.2:15 - this of course wasn't God's original plan - had Man done his part, he would've stayed in the Garden. But he wasn't - so God moved on to plan B).

That is an interesting take on things.....but in keeping with God's original mandate, humans were to "fill the earth", not just the garden. He originally had them tend the garden (for practice under his supervision) but it was always his purpose for humans to spread out in the earth as populations increased and to spread their paradise all over the earth. With no defects and strong physical bodies, the work assigned would have been very enjoyable. There would have been no sore muscles or time limits placed on any project. Humans were created in God's image, meaning that because God is a tireless worker, then so would they be.....there would be no laziness, because the defects in humans came with sin. If God had wanted Adam to sin, why would he then punish him with death? That makes no sense.

Okay, I have no idea.

As I see things, the whole story has to have continuity from start to finish. The Bible's narrative is not obscure from my perspective...it is one story that began in Genesis, but is finalized in Revelation. We are actually taken back to God's original purpose of living forever on this earth and completing what he began in Eden. The route taken was a detour because Adam abused his free will, so God used his defection to teach all of his children a valuable lesson in obedience......but its destination never changed. We were always going to live in paradise as God first purposed.

Isaiah 55:11...
"so shall be My word that emanates from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, unless it has done what I desire and has made prosperous the one to whom I sent it."

What God starts, he finishes.

The prosperity of his children was always guaranteed by God, but first they had to learn why their obedience to his laws was mandatory. Free will was not totally free because they had to stay within the limits that God set for it....otherwise that blessing would become a curse as the abuse of free will always means someone else's will gets trampled on.....sometimes it is God's will that gets trampled on. (Isn't that what we have seen) The most important command was to love God and to obey him in everything....even if some smart Alec has a good yarn to spin...don't believe him.

That is how I see things. God closes the door to no one, until the time limit he sets comes to an end. We all have the same opportunity to respond to his message of salvation and survive the conclusion of the present system of things, that is fast approaching. If people are not feeling a little overwhelmed by the events of 2020 so far, then they must be living in a bubble. The 'last days' I believe have become the 'last minutes'....

 

[james bond]

OK....so where is this spiritual existence to be lived in your view? The fact is that God originally intended that humans would live forever on earth. When I read Genesis, I cannot find a 'natural cause' of death. It is only mentioned as a penalty for disobedience.
Where did God say Adam would go when sentencing him for his disobedience?

Genesis 3:19...
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return." (Tanakh)

No mention of any kind of afterlife here....just a return to the dust, (elements of the earth) from which God had made him. Solomon confirmed this when he lamented that humans had no advantage over the animals in death...
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust." (Tanakh)

How are humans 'made in God's image' if they are mortal and have no advantage over the animals?
If, as he says...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 Tanakh)
How do you see that life lived? Where is "the world to come"?

In the Jewish view, why did God bar the way to "the tree of life"?
Genesis 3:22-24 tells us...
"Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever."

23 And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken.

24 And He drove the man out, and He stationed from the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life" (Tanakh)

It clearly states that the tree of life was the means that God had provided so that living forever could be enjoyed in mortal flesh, on earth in paradise conditions.....isn't that what is programmed into our hearts? Don't we all desire to live in paradise? Isn't death still the most foreign thing in our lives? We have no 'program' for it, nor are we equipped mentally or emotionally or physically to endure pain, trauma and injustice or suffering. They were never supposed to happen.



That is an interesting take on things.....but in keeping with God's original mandate, humans were to "fill the earth", not just the garden. He originally had them tend the garden (for practice under his supervision) but it was always his purpose for humans to spread out in the earth as populations increased and to spread their paradise all over the earth. With no defects and strong physical bodies, the work assigned would have been very enjoyable. There would have been no sore muscles or time limits placed on any project. Humans were created in God's image, meaning that because God is a tireless worker, then so would they be.....there would be no laziness, because the defects in humans came with sin. If God had wanted Adam to sin, why would he then punish him with death? That makes no sense.



As I see things, the whole story has to have continuity from start to finish. The Bible's narrative is not obscure from my perspective...it is one story that began in Genesis, but is finalized in Revelation. We are actually taken back to God's original purpose of living forever on this earth and completing what he began in Eden. The route taken was a detour because Adam abused his free will, so God used his defection to teach all of his children a valuable lesson in obedience......but its destination never changed. We were always going to live in paradise as God first purposed.

Isaiah 55:11...
"so shall be My word that emanates from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, unless it has done what I desire and has made prosperous the one to whom I sent it."

What God starts, he finishes.

The prosperity of his children was always guaranteed by God, but first they had to learn why their obedience to his laws was mandatory. Free will was not totally free because they had to stay within the limits that God set for it....otherwise that blessing would become a curse as the abuse of free will always means someone else's will gets trampled on.....sometimes it is God's will that gets trampled on. (Isn't that what we have seen) The most important command was to love God and to obey him in everything....even if some smart Alec has a good yarn to spin...don't believe him.

That is how I see things. God closes the door to no one, until the time limit he sets comes to an end. We all have the same opportunity to respond to his message of salvation and survive the conclusion of the present system of things, that is fast approaching. If people are not feeling a little overwhelmed by the events of 2020 so far, then they must be living in a bubble. The 'last days' I believe have become the 'last minutes'....

Thank you, @Deeje. You certainly made my day. There is much in the way of God in your post.

 

[Thief]

I meant 200 K years of humankind, not 200 years. Typo.

It would be nice to know when the end will be, but we won't know and it will happen when we least expect it. All we can do is be prepared for it. I'm trying to find out myself how one can be prepared.

a fresh topic
please post it

 

[Thief]

I don't think the forbidden fruit was a trick. God clearly stated it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He also told them it would cause death.

nay...the fruit was just.....fruit

the proposal...….eat not of this
for in the day that you do......you will die

the compulsion to eat of it would be what?

curiosity

and to be soooooo curious.....even death will not stop you.....IS
that spirit needful
when your last breath is at hand

 

[sojourner]

A true story.

It is disappointing in that Adam and Eve could not keep God's one command and it caused us to be without God. It's not befuddling when one understands all that happened with being without God. One is we can be perfect with God. No blood is necessary. We have perfect bone and flesh. Thus, what God did afterward had to do with the sin. He could not stay in the new heaven. He had to leave and thus death (evidence for God) came into existence.

God the Father is a holy being. He cannot be with sin. Thus, he had to leave. Maybe it's like an allergy and even a small one causes a grave reaction. Thus, humans were without God from the first sin. These are two of the key points -- God being holy and not being with sin and being without God. Today, we have humans who do not want to be with God, but without God, i.e. atheists.

My evidence is what happened afterward. The universe and Earth is still here, but we have death, i.e. everyone must die and we still have sin. We had so much sin, God had to destroy the descendants of Adam and Eve in order to save the innocents from being killed. Thus, we live only until the next extinction event.

Without God means living without God. Atheism is a religion that purports to live without God. Evolution is a science that purports to live without God. Everything is based on not having God exist. Another situation could mean you live with Satan. You accept Satan. Your life's motto may be:

View attachment 36577

I've only met one person who was like this and his handle, if he were you, would be skwimburnsinhell. That's some kind of handle, if you ask me.

First, Adam received his dominion over the Earth and we see it today over animals:

"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26

However, to have mastery over the animals, God wanted us to learn about them. Not abuse them. Today, we have abuse of these animals and people get upset over this sin.

As for Adam giving up his dominion and Satan capturing it, one has to read the Bible more in depth. However, here are a couple of verses showing Satan having dominion:

"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." 1 John 5:19

This verse is after Jesus saved us from our doom. Shows Satan had dominion:
"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to fthe kingdom of his beloved Son," Colossians 1:13

Still, Satan is very powerful as he wants to hide. He does appear to do this well because no one wants evidence for Satan. I don't think demonstrating Satan's existence is a winning argument. I acknowledge Satan is still powerful and awaits to tempt us and he remains "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." It may be a coincidence that you refer to God as god, but I think you inadvertently acknowledge your master.

For free will, let's define it. Free will means that God gave humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny. Other matters could be important to you and others such as the pilot's, of the helicopter that Kobe Bryant and his daughter were passengers, decision to fly (he had a license to fly in fog) was or it could not be that important such as what color shirt I will wear this morning. We were affected by Adam and Eve's free will gravely. Thus, if your decisions affect your destiny, then it means free will. Can you deny that?

You could benefit from a class in theology. This is a painfully abysmal example of theological thinking.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

by definition......belief needs no proving

Beliefs need evidence. At least... they do, if you care about holding as much accurate beliefs as possible; if you care about being justified in your beliefs.

If you don't care about that, then sure, evidence doesn't matter.

and if the evidence I DO have for my beliefs fails to convince you.....
that's not my fault

That totally depends on why it doesn't convince me.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

>>I don't need evidence for beliefs I don't hold.<<

Then it's a religion. Like I said atheism is a religion, but science does not back it up. You believe caca.

That makes no sense at all.

>>No, you do not.<<

Sure, it is. What other planet is covered by 3/4 surface water?

Irrelevant. You said this is evidence of the mythical bible flood. It isn't.

Also, out of catastrophes, a flood kills the most people. You just can't figure these things out like I can.

There is zero evidence for this mythical flood. Instead, there is nothing but evidence that refutes it.
The entire story is absurd. It's physically impossible, literally, and all testable predictions it makes turn out wrong. Literally not a single aspect of the story holds up.

>>It reeks of confirmation bias from beginning to end.<<

Do you have anything I can read to verify what you said here (besides assertions)?

You could read up on what mitochondrial eve and y-chromosome adam are REALLY all about from a proper source.

You'll learn about how they really lived millenia apart and about how these two individuals were just individuals in a population of thousands.

As for the rest, tldr. No links at all to back up what you are saying.

Your link was to a blog post which was just an opinion piece in which some guy misrepresented the actual science. I wouldn't really complain about "links" if I were you.

Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia

 

[sooda]

nay...the fruit was just.....fruit

the proposal...….eat not of this
for in the day that you do......you will die

the compulsion to eat of it would be what?

curiosity

and to be soooooo curious.....even death will not stop you.....IS
that spirit needful
when your last breath is at hand

Analyzing a myth is fun.

Genesis 3:22-24 tells us...
"Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever."

 

[Thief]

Analyzing a myth is fun.

Genesis 3:22-24 tells us...
"Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever."

for me to answer?

it's a catch.....
death was always there waiting
a chosen son walked with God
a test was dealt and in appearance Adam and Eve failed
but no

death was always there waiting

I do not believe Adam was the first man to walk this earth
he likely knew his parents and community

but he would be the first to walk with God
in ideal living conditions

alteration of body and mind took place.....and took hold
and to insure continuance of the change
a bride suitable......Eve
not born of woman......no navel

the test came and went.....and they passed
Man would forever be curious.....even if death is pending

as for death.....
THAT was always part of the deal

to say....in the day that you partake....you die
is not a lie

we are here to learn all that we can.....then we die
and we take back to God and heaven whatever the dust has wrought

 

[viole]

The new heaven. Yes, but our new perfect bodies and life spirit like that of resurrected Jesus will not be capable of sin. Apparently, all this was to find the true believers.

so, you can have free will and still be incapable of sin? I thought God that was not possible, without turning into robots. And God does not like to be worshipped by robots, apparently.

And what do you mean with perfect? Were Adam and Eve not perfect?

ciao

- viole

 

[james bond]

That makes no sense at all.



Irrelevant. You said this is evidence of the mythical bible flood. It isn't.



There is zero evidence for this mythical flood. Instead, there is nothing but evidence that refutes it.
The entire story is absurd. It's physically impossible, literally, and all testable predictions it makes turn out wrong. Literally not a single aspect of the story holds up.



You could read up on what mitochondrial eve and y-chromosome adam are REALLY all about from a proper source.

You'll learn about how they really lived millenia apart and about how these two individuals were just individuals in a population of thousands.



Your link was to a blog post which was just an opinion piece in which some guy misrepresented the actual science. I wouldn't really complain about "links" if I were you.

Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia

Your answers are the ones which make no sense and are assertions. You really don't have much of an argument. Besides you use the biased wikipedia. Yuck.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your answers are the ones which make no sense and are assertions. You really don't have much of an argument. Besides you use the biased wikipedia. Yuck.

"biased" wikipedia?

lol!

I guess that's why every article on there has all those references and citations on the bottom of every page

I bet your idea of an "unbiased" source, is some type of organization where all contributers are required to first sign some statement of faith.

 

[Jos]

It is disappointing in that Adam and Eve could not keep God's one command and it caused us to be without God

Clearly humans weren't without God since God regularly communicated with and spoke to people even after the Fall and he intervened at times in the world so God was still there.

 

[james bond]

Interesting, but I don’t think your parent/ child analogy exactly works with the account of Adam/Eve and God.
First because the account in Genesis, although indicating A&E were innocent with regard to good and evil, they are not portrayed as children. Rather they are shown to have been created as adults who, not only experienced God’s love and care for them, but intelligently conversed with God daily.
Secondly, as intelligent beings they chose to disobey a simple and clear command, the only prohibition given them, to instead believe a blatant lie in order to satisfy a selfish desire.
I believe it this wrong motive of their heart/ mind and acting upon it which broke trust and relationship with God causing separation.

I tend to agree with what you said instead of @dfnj.

However, there are two key points you have to understand. One, is Adam and Eve were not innocents. They knew what was good and evil, and the difference between right and wrong. They knew the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the one command that they were not supposed to disobey. It was God's one command to them. Everything else was perfect in their garden. They had the world to explore. They had the animals and plants to learn about. They had plenty of time to raise a family. If they wanted to build a house and collect and grow their favorite flowers and plants or have their favorite foods, it was of their choosing. They didn't have to think about the ToK, but it was there in the back of their minds. If they were innocent, then it was they lacked experience in good and evil and between right and wrong.

Next, is this selfish desire that you mention. It isn't just about doing something verboten and rebelling. It was about trusting someone whom they had not met nor had known. A serpent who could talk. They had the power to reason what it was saying, but they did not even stop to consider the source nor that it was directly contradicting God, who had been their creator, provider, and one whom they trusted. It was about believing that they weren't going to die; that they were able to beat the consequences. Being perfect meant they had their own powers, too, and they thought they were like God. Does that sound familiar? It is what Lucifer thought, too.

"But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5

 

[james bond]

You can't profit from what you can't control. The demiurge can only control what is beneath them and not what is above. So the most high sent a prophet, a seer, a soothsayer, and the illusion was broken. Their eyes were opened. The fall didn't occur in the garden of the east. It fell when the spirits became attached to earth and tried to create heaven here vs God omnipresent. You failed.

Generally speaking, one cannot profit from what they can't control, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

There are no demiurges. The fall did occur in the garden in the East as told in the Bible. This God's own words and autobiography, so it does not fail. OTOH, your words could fail you as they are human words.

 

[sooda]

Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Creation Myth
https://www.creationmyths.org/enumaelish-babylonian-creation
Enuma Elish is the old Babylonian creation myth, which has been preserved for thousands of years on clay tablets. It predates most of the creation myths of the world, although it's surely not the oldest one. Here is the translated text of the myth, investigated and explained.

 

[james bond]

"biased" wikipedia?

lol!

I guess that's why every article on there has all those references and citations on the bottom of every page

I bet your idea of an "unbiased" source, is some type of organization where all contributers are required to first sign some statement of faith.

Wikipedia is founded by Jimmy Wales, a known pornographer. It is liberal and biased against Christianity.

Jimmy Wales used porn site money to launch Wikipedia, then edited his own entries to try to hide his links to porn industry

Wikipedia is a part of his for-profit company, but he uses it to raise donations. Do you give money to the low-life scum?

I don't. Sometimes, I'll use it for fun, entertainment, and sports lookups for convenience. Never for serious topics.

Instead, if you have to memorize anything, look up something, or want to feel righteous about yourself instead being slimed, use conservapedia.

Jimmy Wales - Conservapedia

 

[james bond]

Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Creation Myth
https://www.creationmyths.org/enumaelish-babylonian-creation
Enuma Elish is the old Babylonian creation myth, which has been preserved for thousands of years on clay tablets. It predates most of the creation myths of the world, although it's surely not the oldest one. Here is the translated text of the myth, investigated and explained.

Shoebill Stork

It looks like a flying dragon type animal? Is this another myth that has spread worldwide (psst masquerading as evolutionary science)?

 

[Fool]

Generally speaking, one cannot profit from what they can't control, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

the fall comes from the burial of the spirit into earth, the body, which is the grave that jesus spoke of. Let the dead bury the dead. daniel speaks of it too. of the dead being raised up to everlasting.

There are no demiurges. The fall did occur in the garden in the East as told in the Bible. This God's own words and autobiography, so it does not fail. OTOH, your words could fail you as they are human words.

oh but there are co-creators with god.


John 14:12-14