Why anti-theism is a joke.

[Storm]

no, not really. theism is bigoted by definition too.

How? What's bigoted about believing in God?

 

[waitasec]

How?

theism is not immune to bigotry. open any history book and you will find they have been intertwined from time to time.

What's bigoted about believing in God?

what is bigoted about not...?

 

[Storm]

theism is not immune to bigotry. open any history book and you will find they have been intertwined from time to time.

Didn't say it was immune. Said it's not a defining characteristic.

what is bigoted about not...?

Absolutely nothing, which is why I distinguished atheism from anti-theism.

 

[waitasec]

Didn't say it was immune. Said it's not a defining characteristic.

then hatred does not exclusively belong to anti theism

Absolutely nothing, which is why I distinguished atheism from anti-theism.

if you say theism is not immune to bigotry, why then exclude theism from it when you made that statement..."anti theism is hatred"?

 

[fantome profane]

If you insist on defining anti-theism as bigoted and hateful then you can’t help but come to the conclusion that anti-theists are hateful and bigoted. Just as if you define anti-theism as being overweight then you will conclude that all anti-theists are fat. I just don’t think that defining the term like this is accurate or useful. It seems to me a cheap way of demonizing the opposition and an easy way to dismiss any argument you don’t want to hear.

So let me ask those who think anti-theism is by definition bigoted, what term would you use to describe someone who is opposed to the concept of theism but is not bigoted?

 

[Storm]

If you insist on defining anti-theism as bigoted and hateful then you can’t help but come to the conclusion that anti-theists are hateful and bigoted. Just as if you define anti-theism as being overweight then you will conclude that all anti-theists are fat. I just don’t think that defining the term like this is accurate or useful. It seems to me a cheap way of demonizing the opposition and an easy way to dismiss any argument you don’t want to hear.

So let me ask those who think anti-theism is by definition bigoted, what term would you use to describe someone who is opposed to the concept of theism but is not bigoted?

It depends on the nuances of "opposed to the concept of theism," honestly.

If you mean someone who rejects theism, criticizes it (even harshly), I would call that person an atheist.

ETA: What does "anti-theist" mean to you?

 

[waitasec]

It depends on the nuances of "opposed to the concept of theism," honestly.

If you mean someone who rejects theism, criticizes it (even harshly), I would call that person an atheist.

ETA: What does "anti-theist" mean to you?

from what i gather...
it is going against the ideas any ancient book labels god...
if i don't know what god is, how can anyone else?

 

[Storm]

from what i gather...
it is going against the ideas any ancient book labels god...
if i don't know what god is, how can anyone else?

Isn't that just atheism?

 

[fantome profane]

It depends on the nuances of "opposed to the concept of theism," honestly.

If you mean someone who rejects theism, criticizes it (even harshly), I would call that person an atheist.

Then what would you call someone who is not opposed to theism but just doesn’t believe in “God”?

Do you see that there is a difference between rejecting a concept and criticizing a concept?

And further do you see that there is a difference between criticizing a concept and being a hateful bigot?

ETA: What does "anti-theist" mean to you?

I thought I had been very clear. And anti-theist is someone who opposes theism. That doesn’t mean they are bigoted.

There are people who don’t accept the any concept of “God”, these are atheists.

There are people who oppose the concept of “God”, these are anti-theists.

There are people who hold hateful opinions of theists, these are bigots.


You can be an atheist without being an anti-theist. You can be an atheist and an anti-theist without being a bigot. Or you can be an atheist, anti-theist and a bigot.

 

[Storm]

Then what would you call someone who is not opposed to theism but just doesn’t believe in “God”?

An atheist, just less opinionated.

Do you see that there is a difference between rejecting a concept and criticizing a concept?

And further do you see that there is a difference between criticizing a concept and being a hateful bigot?

I just said so. Why are you asking me to repeat myself?

I thought I had been very clear. And anti-theist is someone who opposes theism. That doesn’t mean they are bigoted.

As I said, it depends on the nuances of "oppose," which is why I asked you to clarify.

There are people who don’t accept the any concept of “God”, these are atheists.

There are people who oppose the concept of “God”, these are anti-theists.

See, to me, opposing an idea means fighting it. Trying to stamp it out, whether through debate or more extreme measures. So, when you say that, what you communicate to me is someone who thinks it's completely unjustifiable to believe in God under any circumstance. That's the mild, best case scenario. And it's bigoted.

There are people who hold hateful opinions of theists, these are bigots.

Bigots can also hold hateful opinions of other ideas.

You can be an atheist without being an anti-theist.

Duh.

You can be an atheist and an anti-theist without being a bigot.

Not convinced on that one.

 

[Quagmire]

from what i gather...
it is going against the ideas any ancient book labels god...
if i don't know what god is, how can anyone else?

What do you mean by "going against"?

I'm not seeing any logical connection between your last two lines.

What I mean is (for instance): I don't understand Quantum mechanics; I don't know what some of the basic theories are saying.

That doesn't mean I'm anti-quantum mechanics.

If, instead of merely "not knowing" what the theories are saying I "go against" the theories by claiming they don't make sense or that it's all some kind of a hoax, then you could call me anti-quantum mechanics.

According to the definition you're using here, anyone who's ignorant on any subject is "anti-" said subject.

By that logic, anyone who's uninformed about the history or cultures of Semitic people could automatically be considered anti-Semitic.

Anyone who doesn't speak French would be "anti"-French, etc.

 

[Quagmire]

I see a lot of people playing with terms and definitions in this thread in order to avoid dealing with the topic.

 

[waitasec]

Isn't that just atheism?

is it?
or could it be the notion that someone is capable to understand this mystery that is, in my mind, man made... and this vague awareness to put oneself in the position to understand is the notion, i as an anti theist, stand against.

What do you mean by "going against"?

I'm not seeing any logical connection between your last two lines.

What I mean is (for instance): I don't understand Quantum mechanics; I don't know what some of the basic theories are saying.

That doesn't mean I'm anti-quantum mechanics.

If, instead of merely "not knowing" what the theories are saying I "go against" the theories by claiming they don't make sense or that it's all some kind of a hoax, then you could call me anti-quantum mechanics.

According to the definition you're using here, anyone who's ignorant on any subject is "anti-" said subject.

By that logic, anyone who's uninformed about the history or cultures of Semitic people could automatically be considered anti-Semitic.

Anyone who doesn't speak French would be "anti"-French, etc.

no. religious books are available to be criticised and are also subjected to skepticism. just because i don't understand french doesn't mean i am anti french because people do in fact speak it...
we have religious books that label god...and to think one can understand or label something which cannot be verifiable...is imho impossible.

I see a lot of people playing with terms and definitions in this thread in order to avoid dealing with the topic.

if i'm not mistaken, isn't this a place where one can learn something?
what is the difference between anti theism and atheism?
there are ideas about ideas...all ideas are subjected to skepticism...

 

[Quiddity]

An atheist, just less opinionated.

It's been long held that those of faith and religion quiver at the thought of criticism and questioning. Some of that is true; and some may indeed quiver, but some of us are ok with opinions, disagreements, and even some criticism that comes with emotion.

So it's not really opinions or disagreements or even criticisms that makes you an anti-theist. I mean, how else can they have a voice?

But rather it is of a certain brand and venom. I look for consistancy, what they focus on, how they ask, do they even ask, and it's sometimes everybody can smell the brand no matter from what walk of life you come from.

However, from their perpective it's all game and generally if you don't tend to attach meaning as much as say myself and millions of others religious folks do, you'll be like a child offending every sacred thing without meaning to. However others know exactly what they are doing and simply don't care.

 

[Copernicus]

It's not so much a choice as my understanding of the word. What's yours?

Since I have already gone into detail on my understanding of the word, I see no reason to repeat myself. I have also explained why your understanding is irrelevant to my objection. It is equivalent to singling out any minority and making up a descriptor for some subgroup of that minority just so you can rag on it. All that does is foment anger towards the minority group, since not everyone will stick with your narrow definition.

 

[Quagmire]

no. religious books are available to be criticised and are also subjected to skepticism.

Uh huh. It would be nice to see skepticism expressed in more constructive terms than "Nyah nyah nyah all religions are stupid" or various versions thereof.

just because i don't understand french doesn't mean i am anti french because people do in fact speak it...

Yeah, that's my point. In the post I was responding to, you suggested there was no difference between "going against" and idea and not having any definite knowledge about an idea. See the difference now?

we have religious books that label god...and to think one can understand or label something which cannot be verifiable...is imho impossible.

So this means it's OK to bash or harass people who have beliefs about this thing that can't be known? Because that's the topic. That's what we're talking about here. I'd be really surprised if you realized it but your point so far, in the context of this thread, is basically that "since we don't know what god is, or if he is, it's OK to troll people who have specific beliefs about God".

Now you'll no doubt respond with something like "Oh no, I don't believe that". Doesn't matter: anyone who wants to take a good look at your posts in this thread so far can see that this is exactly what they add up to.

if i'm not mistaken, isn't this a place where one can learn something?

In theory. :yes:

what is the difference between anti theism and atheism?

There've been about half a dozen explanations about the distinction in this thread so far. Take your pick.

there are ideas about ideas...all ideas are subjected to skepticism...

So you don't see the difference between skepticism and trolling?

Edit: and you never answered my question: what do you mean by "going against"?

 

[Quagmire]

Define "topic." I want to know exactly what you're talking about so I can best avoid answering you in any meaningful way.

Really tempted to re-title this thread "Yes Virginia, there is a Semantic Clause" and moving it to the Jokes and Games forum.

 

[Willamena]

is it?
or could it be the notion that someone is capable to understand this mystery that is, in my mind, man made... and this vague awareness to put oneself in the position to understand is the notion, i as an anti theist, stand against.


no. religious books are available to be criticised and are also subjected to skepticism. just because i don't understand french doesn't mean i am anti french because people do in fact speak it...
we have religious books that label god...and to think one can understand or label something which cannot be verifiable...is imho impossible.



if i'm not mistaken, isn't this a place where one can learn something?
what is the difference between anti theism and atheism?
there are ideas about ideas...all ideas are subjected to skepticism...

The antitheist, according to Wikipedia, is, in the case of the atheist, actively opposed to theism and the idea of god/gods, and, in the case of a theist being antitheist, actively opposed to another's god/gods.

I think that as a label it's a significant distinction from the atheist, not only in being applicable to theists but in being active opposition, implying not just belief but activity taken in opposition.

 

[waitasec]

Why not?

i think it has to do with my background and it holds a sensitive spot in my heart. as a child being subjected to the indoctrination of the christian of christianity had a very big influences over the choices i made in life in which i have to live with for the remainder of my life...
i thought i knew the truth when in fact i didn't...and i'm quite certain i am not the only one...in other words, it takes one to know one.

 

[waitasec]

The antitheist, according to Wikipedia, is, in the case of the atheist, actively opposed to theism and the idea of god/gods, and, in the case of a theist being antitheist, actively opposed to another's god/gods.

I think that as a label it's a significant distinction from the atheist, not only in being applicable to theists but in being active opposition, implying not just belief but activity taken in opposition.

i do not go around to churches actively telling church goers they are delusional.
i will mention my position if it happens to come up in conversation. so would that not make me an anti theist?