Why are men expected to take care of their children?

[ImmortalFlame]

This is untrue for many conservatives. Seems like you are talking about stereotypes of religious conservatives for the most part.

So, do you not believe that religious conservative do not put more social pressure on mothers to conform to social expectations of motherhood than they do men?

 

[crossfire]

I never mention anything about violence. I was thinking more of I will make you carry the baby out of spite. I also think managing a pregnancy belongs to the woman. I never said anything different.

Either way, if someone (state or partner) disagrees with the woman's wishes regarding the pregnancy, it's gonna be bad news for the woman no matter what.

 

[PureX]

The father should have a legal say in taking care of the child. Right?

What does that mean? Are you talking about the man raising it on his own? Even then, You can't be saying that he should be able to make the woman carry the child to term when she doesn't want to. That would be the most invasive form of slavery!

It is his child too. I am not saying that men get to tell women to have an abortion. I am saying that some men and women think the mother should not be able to kill the human life inside her.

If they are a couple, I am sure they will decide what to do together. But if they are not, or they can't agree, it's her body and her life most effected so it's her call. If she wants to keep it and he does not, he is still going to be responsible for supporting the child he created. If she wants to abort it, and he doesn't, that's her call and they both will have to live with her decision.

It's not a matter of what's fair. It's more a matter of the lesser of several bad possibilities regarding an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never said anything about vasectomies or abortions. You want to make my question about something it is not.

Here's what you said:

Why do women get to choose if they can take care of their child or not but men do not get this choice?

You've got the answer several times, so I don't expect it'll get through this time either, but here goes:

Both parents have the same duty to provide for their child. This duty doesn't supersede the bodily autonomy of either parent.

If some circumstance arises where the life of a child depends on the use of the father's body - an organ donation, maybe - the father is completely within his rights to refuse for any reason, even if his child will surely die as a result.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I give woman all the bodily autonomy she wants.

I think you understand that this isn't true.

I just don't think she can use her bodily autonomy to kill a human life.

So then you don't want women to have bodily autonomy.

Pretending that you haven't taken this monstrous position doesn't make it any better. The fact that you know to deny what you're doing just highlights that you recognize that it's wrong.

 

[bobhikes]

That does not answer my question. My question is not about the mothers choices but about the fathers choices.

You asked about the extra choice which is only valid after pregnancy, she has the extra choice because it is her body and her life that is going to be effected for the next 9 months to 1 year and 9 months. Before pregnancy both have the same responsibilities and preventative measures available.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I never mention anything about violence. I was thinking more of I will make you carry the baby out of spite.

The fact that you don't see forced pregnancy as violence is... telling.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So, do you not believe that religious conservative do not put more social pressure on mothers to conform to social expectations of motherhood than they do men?

Some do some don't.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Either way, if someone (state or partner) disagrees with the woman's wishes regarding the pregnancy, it's gonna be bad news for the woman no matter what.

Ok

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What does that mean? Are you talking about the man raising it on his own? Even then, You can't be saying that he should be able to make the woman carry the child to term when she doesn't want to. That would be the most invasive form of slavery!

I never said that the father should be able to force the mother to carry the baby.

If they are a couple, I am sure they will decide what to do together. But if they are not, or they can't agree, it's her body and her life most effected so it's her call. If she wants to keep it and he does not, he is still going to be responsible for supporting the child he created. If she wants to abort it, and he doesn't, that's her call and they both will have to live with her decision.

I agree the father is responsible for caring for the child. I also agree that the mother is as well. I don't think you agree with me on that.

It's not a matter of what's fair. It's more a matter of the lesser of several bad possibilities regarding an unwanted pregnancy.

I can agree, but we don't agree on what the lesser of bad possibilities are.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Here's what you said:

Why do women get to choose if they can take care of their child or not but men do not get this choice?

You've got the answer several times, so I don't expect it'll get through this time either, but here goes:

Both parents have the same duty to provide for their child. This duty doesn't supersede the bodily autonomy of either parent.

If some circumstance arises where the life of a child depends on the use of the father's body - an organ donation, maybe - the father is completely within his rights to refuse for any reason, even if his child will surely die as a result.

I agree that both parents have a responsibility to care for the child. I don't think you think that because you think the woman can have an abortion for any reason. I don't think that is caring for the child. So you think the woman does not have the responsibility but the man does.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I think you understand that this isn't true.



So then you don't want women to have bodily autonomy.

Pretending that you haven't taken this monstrous position doesn't make it any better. The fact that you know to deny what you're doing just highlights that you recognize that it's wrong.

The problem you refuse to see is that there is another human life involved that did not decide to be in this situation unlike the mother and father. What about the bodily autonomy of the innocent human life? YOu also refuse to see that the mother and father engaged in an activity willingly and they have a responsibility for those actions. A drunk driver is responsible if they kill someone even though they did not intend to.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You asked about the extra choice which is only valid after pregnancy, she has the extra choice because it is her body and her life that is going to be effected for the next 9 months to 1 year and 9 months. Before pregnancy both have the same responsibilities and preventative measures available.

Why do you think that they both have a responsibility before having sex but then the mother does not have a responsibility if those action lead to a pregnancy?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The fact that you don't see forced pregnancy as violence is... telling.

Telling of what?

 

[crossfire]

Ok

I've got a study to back it up:

Science Update: Pregnancy-associated homicides on the rise in the United States, suggests NICHD-funded study

U.S. rates of pregnancy-associated homicide—deaths that occur among women who are pregnant or had been pregnant within one year—rose in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a recent NICHD-funded study.

www.nichd.nih.gov

Snippet:

​

U.S. rates of pregnancy-associated homicide—deaths that occur among women who are pregnant or had been pregnant within one year—rose in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a recent NICHD-funded study. In 2020, the risk of homicide was 35% higher for pregnant or postpartum women, compared to women of reproductive age who were not pregnant or postpartum. Homicide rates were highest among adolescents and Black women, with most incidents involving firearms. The findings suggest that violence prevention programs and policies in the United States should address these risks in pregnancy and after birth.​

​

​

Background​

Homicide is one of the leading causes of death among pregnant and postpartum individuals in the United States, and during the COVID-19 pandemic, firearm violence and homicide rates increased among the general public. Whether the pandemic also influenced rates of pregnancy-associated homicide was unknown prior to this study.​

​

The study was conducted by Maeve Wallace, Ph.D., M.P.H., at Tulane University. The work was funded in part by NIH’s Implementing a Maternal health and Pregnancy Outcomes Vision for Everyone (IMPROVE) Initiative. The initiative supports research to reduce preventable causes of maternal deaths and to improve health for women before, during, and after delivery."​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem you refuse to see is that there is another human life involved that did not decide to be in this situation unlike the mother and father. What about the bodily autonomy of the innocent human life?

Our right to bodily autonomy doesn't imply the right for us to use or occupy someone else's body against their will.

This has been explained to you many times. When should I decide that your failure to understand is willful?

YOu also refuse to see that the mother and father engaged in an activity willingly and they have a responsibility for those actions. A drunk driver is responsible if they kill someone even though they did not intend to.

There's that rapist mentality again:

"If she didn't want a baby, she should have kept her legs together."

"If she didn't want to have sex, she shouldn't have invited him in."

Continuous consent is the standard.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I've got a study to back it up:

Science Update: Pregnancy-associated homicides on the rise in the United States, suggests NICHD-funded study

U.S. rates of pregnancy-associated homicide—deaths that occur among women who are pregnant or had been pregnant within one year—rose in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a recent NICHD-funded study.

www.nichd.nih.gov

Snippet:

​

U.S. rates of pregnancy-associated homicide—deaths that occur among women who are pregnant or had been pregnant within one year—rose in 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a recent NICHD-funded study. In 2020, the risk of homicide was 35% higher for pregnant or postpartum women, compared to women of reproductive age who were not pregnant or postpartum. Homicide rates were highest among adolescents and Black women, with most incidents involving firearms. The findings suggest that violence prevention programs and policies in the United States should address these risks in pregnancy and after birth.​

​

​

Background​

Homicide is one of the leading causes of death among pregnant and postpartum individuals in the United States, and during the COVID-19 pandemic, firearm violence and homicide rates increased among the general public. Whether the pandemic also influenced rates of pregnancy-associated homicide was unknown prior to this study.​

​

The study was conducted by Maeve Wallace, Ph.D., M.P.H., at Tulane University. The work was funded in part by NIH’s Implementing a Maternal health and Pregnancy Outcomes Vision for Everyone (IMPROVE) Initiative. The initiative supports research to reduce preventable causes of maternal deaths and to improve health for women before, during, and after delivery."​

This has nothing to do with my OP. If the father could just walk away from the responsibility like the mother can wouldn't this help this situation?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Our right to bodily autonomy doesn't imply the right for us to use or occupy someone else's body against their will.

This has been explained to you many times. When should I decide that your failure to understand is willful?

I understand the position. I disagree with it.

There's that rapist mentality again:

"If she didn't want a baby, she should have kept her legs together."

"If she didn't want to have sex, she shouldn't have invited him in."

Continuous consent is the standard.

This is not what I said at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand the position. I disagree with it.

Your posts suggest that you don't understand it.

This is not what I said at all.

It's equivalent. You said "the mother and father engaged in an activity willingly and they have a responsibility for those actions."

You've suggested that "responsibility" in this case means that the woman should give up bodily autonomy. As I said, this is the mentality of a rapist.

 

[PureX]

The mother cannot just walk

This has nothing to do with my OP. If the father could just walk away from the responsibility like the mother can wouldn't this help this situation?

The mother can't just walk away from her responsibility for he child. It's inside of her body. So she either must have it removed, birth it and adopt it out, or birth it and raise it. How is any of this "just walking away"?