Why are people Catholic?

[HerDotness]

All the pushing liberal social causes even though I am a liberal Dem is part of what led me to give up on the UU church. As people have sometimes remarked on UU boards, "I don't want to hear about why I should support some political cause when I go to church. I go to church for inspiration and spiritual renewal, not somebody's insistence that we all must rise up and support this cause."

And the RC rants about abortion and contraception even though opposition to both is strongly based in church teachings got tiresome and contributed to my decision to leave the RCC.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

That's fair enough i think. I've never heard much nice stuff about The Catholic Church.
Mainly about the years of persecution of various peoples and the crusades etc. Plus all the stuff about child abuse.

I would say that the Catholic countries were less given to genocide and Ethnic cleansing then there partners the Protestants. The Catholics had a tendency to converting the indigenous populations. Were he Protestants tended to just kill them and drive them out of the area to resettle it.

Look at the state of California when the Catholic country of Mexico ran the state they put up missions all over the state and forced the Native Americans to become "civilized". As bad as that is, it's nothing compared to what came later. The American Protestant solution of the California State legislator offering money for every scalp of a dead Indian.

 

[HerDotness]

Weeellll, maybe. Not so sure the RCC was all that innocent in the Spanish conquest of Central and South America...but this is another issue altogether really.

Edit to add: And decidedly an issue for a debate thread.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

3--The beauty of the architecture and interior design of most Catholic churches whether your taste tends toward very modern and simple or Gothic and elaborate as many of the 19th century and early 20th century American churches are.

This is another aspect of Catholicism that non-Catholics think is wasteful and overdone. All those statues, stained glass windows with pictures, colors, use of gold for the chalice and some decorative touches, sometimes marble and other valuable types of stone or materials--just way over the top.

To Catholics, beautiful surroundings in church encourage the mind to contemplate the beauty of Christ's sacrifice and the beauty of God's love for His Church.

There is nothing comparable to a Christmas Midnight Mass to impress a person with the awe and majesty of Catholic ritual. All the stops are out on that night, and even in the most modest little Catholic church, that Mass will touch you profoundly in some way unless you've truly a hard heart.

I love to go to old Catholic Churches. The art and architecture is just so beautiful. Art is important and has its place. When I went back to the East coast I went into some old Protestant Churches. I was surprised at just how ugly and unappealing they were. They just did not feel like holy places.

 

[HerDotness]

That's been a good deal of my discomfort with the Prot churches I've since belonged to or have gone to to attend weddings or funerals. They're so stark and unattractive inside.

The tiny rural Catholic church where my parents were married was built in either the late 19th or very early 20th c. It has an elaborately carved white marble altarpiece (the wall behind what used to be the main altar, the one that butts up against the wall) and had a white marble communion railing. The railing may have been removed once Communion began being distributed at the steps leading to the altar rather than having people kneel at the railing. I don't recall...been too long since I've been inside that church.

Also sculpted white marble Stations of the Cross and detailed pictorial stained glass windows.

 

[HerDotness]

Anyone interested in lovely old Catholic churches, do stop off if you're ever driving cross-country on I-70 through Kansas at the Cathedral of the Plains in Victoria, KS.

It's a gorgeous example of fine church architecture and interior design...all funded by German-Catholic farm folk in the early 20th c.

Some now extremely valuable green marble columns in that church.

 

[tumbleweed41]

MOD POST

Due to the potentially argumentative nature of this thread, it has been moved to General Religious Debates.

DIR's are not the place for debate or responses by non-affiliated members.
​

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

That's been a good deal of my discomfort with the Prot churches I've since belonged to or have gone to to attend weddings or funerals. They're so stark and unattractive inside.

The tiny rural Catholic church where my parents were married was built in either the late 19th or very early 20th c. It has an elaborately carved white marble altarpiece (the wall behind what used to be the main altar, the one that butts up against the wall) and had a white marble communion railing. The railing may have been removed once Communion began being distributed at the steps leading to the altar rather than having people kneel at the railing. I don't recall...been too long since I've been inside that church.

Also sculpted white marble Stations of the Cross and detailed pictorial stained glass windows.

Many of the New Catholic churches are also just odd, they are not like they were in the past. There is one in my area that looks like a Giant Golf Ball. Like you said I like the older ones.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Weeellll, maybe. Not so sure the RCC was all that innocent in the Spanish conquest of Central and South America...but this is another issue altogether really.

Edit to add: And decidedly an issue for a debate thread.

Now that it is a debate thread.

Yes, there is that whole estimated drop in population from 22 million to less then a million in the 100 years after the conquest of central Mexico. Most of that was due to sickness. Still, it was not a organized genocide like against the Aboriginal Tasmanians.

 

[beerisit]

Kathryn and HerDotness, thank you both for an interesting (nay, fascinating) wander down memory lane, I loved it. Yes I was a cradle Catholic.

 

[blackout]

Traditional RC mass settings create a mystical ambience
not found in many other mainsream churches.

Beyond the mystical asthetic
are the 7 'mystical' sacraments,
all BTW, of which you NEED the RC church
to partake in-
creating also a scenario of dependence... on the institution itself...
for forgiveness.... true full earthly communion with god... etc.

The 'treasures' later become the trappings.

This is why a good number of people can never truly break free,
even though they want to.

Also, for many, after the RC experience,
there really is nowhere else to go.

Some continue on for the asthetic experience,
some, so they won't go to hell.

 

[blackout]

And then there are those who go really,
just because they were raised RCatholic,
and their whole family goes,
so they go.

All kinds of investment in Religious education
and communion and confirmation and all that.
It's all a major part of their larger family affair/s.
Parties, get togethers, tradition, expectations....

 

[Kathryn]

Don't forget the converts - who are drawn to a beauty and depth that they often don't find in other religious traditions.

 

[blackout]

Kathryn and HerDotness, thank you both for an interesting (nay, fascinating) wander down memory lane, I loved it. Yes I was a cradle Catholic.

Warm fuzzy childhood feelings don't hurt either.
(for those who had them. )

 

[blackout]

Don't forget the converts - who are drawn to a beauty and depth that they often don't find in other religious traditions.

Sure. They enter for all the reasons I stated above.
The 'treasures' , so to speak.

The rich ambiance
the mystical teachings
the sacraments available only there

 

[beerisit]

It's funny to experience this nostalgia even though my grandchildren go to Catholic school and I would be the last person on Earth to dissuade them from the beliefs they are being taught, I may talk to them about it when they are adults if I'm not already in hell. But this has brought back some memories for an old altar boy..

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What do you call your own dad? I mean, if you can't call anyone but God "Father" why do you call ANYONE on earth your father? And when or if you are a father, how do you identify yourself in relation to your kids?

Clearly this wasn't meant to be taken literally.

I think you're equivocating. That and the accompanying verse about not calling people "teacher" speak to an idea of not elevating people with the use of titles. I don't think the fact that each of us has someone who is our literal father changes the fact that when you call a priest "Father", you're elevating him by using the term as a title.

But setting that aside, if you reject this, then how do you think it's meant to be taken?

I'm not saying it has to be interpreted literally, but if someone took the time to write it down, then presumably, they meant to communicate some sort of meaning with it... so what meaning was intended to be communicated?

The most obvious non-literal interpretation of that passage that makes sense to me would be something like "reject social hierarchies", which I think speaks against the Catholic Church, too.

 

[Kathryn]

I think you're equivocating. That and the accompanying verse about not calling people "teacher" speak to an idea of not elevating people with the use of titles. I don't think the fact that each of us has someone who is our literal father changes the fact that when you call a priest "Father", you're elevating him by using the term as a title.

But setting that aside, if you reject this, then how do you think it's meant to be taken?

I'm not saying it has to be interpreted literally, but if someone took the time to write it down, then presumably, they meant to communicate some sort of meaning with it... so what meaning was intended to be communicated?

The most obvious non-literal interpretation of that passage that makes sense to me would be something like "reject social hierarchies", which I think speaks against the Catholic Church, too.

In the New Testament, Paul speaks of "our father Isaac." Stephen refers to "our father Abraham." In fact, there are so many references to "fathers" (who are not biological fathers) in the NT that it's obvious the verse is not meant to be taken literally.

Here's the verse in question:

"But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).

And here's the PASSAGE in question (because we all know how important it is to keep things in context, right?):

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

Jesus is clearly chastising HYPOCRITICAL church leaders, and it is in this context that He says "Call no man Father." His words to the crowd and to His disciples are clearly intended to be heard, and to be provocative toward, the Pharisees, who were more concerned with titles and appearances than with the true meaning of humble service to the Lord and to His people.

Matthew Henry's commentary sums it up nicely:

23:1-12 The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. They are charged with hypocrisy in religion. We can only judge according to outward appearance; but God searches the heart. They made phylacteries. These were scrolls of paper or parchment, wherein were written four paragraphs of the law, to be worn on their foreheads and left arms, Ex 13:2-10; 13:11-16; De 6:4-9; 11:13-21. They made these phylacteries broad, that they might be thought more zealous for the law than others. God appointed the Jews to make fringes upon their garments, Nu 15:38, to remind them of their being a peculiar people; but the Pharisees made them larger than common, as if they were thereby more religious than others. Pride was the darling, reigning sin of the Pharisees, the sin that most easily beset them, and which our Lord Jesus takes all occasions to speak against. For him that is taught in the word to give respect to him that teaches, is commendable; but for him that teaches, to demand it, to be puffed up with it, is sinful. How much is all this against the spirit of Christianity! The consistent disciple of Christ is pained by being put into chief places. But who that looks around on the visible church, would think this was the spirit required? It is plain that some measure of this antichristian spirit prevails in every religious society, and in every one of our hearts.
Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

 

[HerDotness]

Kathryn and HerDotness, thank you both for an interesting (nay, fascinating) wander down memory lane, I loved it. Yes I was a cradle Catholic.

There's a cute little paperback book called Growing Up Catholic that will really bring back memories (some good, others not so) of what it all was like. Well worth buying for a chuckle about the good things...and a reminder of why you left it all as if you need that!

Since the authors appear to be about my age (grew up in the 1950's), it's going to be a real eyeopener for you post-Vat2 kids. The nuns pictured look like REAL nuns, not these is-she-isn't-she's you get today that you can't tell they're a nun until someone calls them Sister.

Oh, yeah...this book will take ya back in the days...when a Mortal Sin was scarier than Frankenstein or Godzilla, and you had contests to see who could say Jesus-Mary-Joseph more times so as to rack up those get-out-of-Purgatory indulgences. 500 YEARS for one indulgence???? Didn't you wonder, too, what that said about how long an unforgiven venial sin on your soul when you died would stick you there?

That was when being Catholic was not Mass-in-English, and just thinking of doing something bad could get your mom breathing down your neck, "You are SO going to Confession for that!"

 

[beerisit]

There's a cute little paperback book called Growing Up Catholic that will really bring back memories (some good, others not so) of what it all was like. Well worth buying for a chuckle about the good things...and a reminder of why you left it all as if you need that!

Since the authors appear to be about my age (grew up in the 1950's), it's going to be a real eyeopener for you post-Vat2 kids. The nuns pictured look like REAL nuns, not these is-she-isn't-she's you get today that you can't tell they're a nun until someone calls them Sister.

Oh, yeah...this book will take ya back in the days...when a Mortal Sin was scarier than Frankenstein or Godzilla, and you had contests to see who could say Jesus-Mary-Joseph more times so as to rack up those get-out-of-Purgatory indulgences. 500 YEARS for one indulgence???? Didn't you wonder, too, what that said about how long an unforgiven venial sin on your soul when you died would stick you there?

That was when being Catholic was not Mass-in-English, and just thinking of doing something bad could get your mom breathing down your neck, "You are SO going to Confession for that!"

AHH hahaha I love that DOT (can I call you that), I was taught by those nuns in the penguin suits, I was an alter boy long before we went to english, I sometimes bring out a little latin to amuse the kids and grandkids and siblings. Thanks.