Skwim
Veteran Member
Last edited:
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Why are We Here?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Why did god create humans?
.
To recognize him by faith, knowing that Angels know him and blindly follow
God's order then human is the creation that can think and recognize God
without knowing him.
Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."(6:149)
Skwim
Veteran Member
So why would god want to be recognized by a creature he created? What's in it for him?
.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
The same way that we try to invent a robot that can recognize and talk to us.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
To decide our divine allegiance. We may be influenced but we are not coerced. At the end of the day we are perfectly free to follow the truth or live in error, and we will get exactly what we choose.Why did god create humans?
.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
To discover the truth. Babies learn everything to survive by asking why questions. You can't learn anything unless you ask the right questions.
Skwim asked : “Why are we here?” and “Why did God create humans?”.
Hi Skwim. I actually think your questions are really good and basic questions. I think I understand your comments about your questions not getting the kind of consideration they deserve. I hope my comments are closer to what you have been looking for.
1) Differing Historical concepts of “creation”, change the underlying context of the question and the theoretical conclusions.
I think the ancient Judeo-Christian concepts and teachings allow us to form more rational and more logical religious models of this existence than models created in the later, more “modern” periods.
For example, the early Judeo-Christian concept that both the earth and spirits of mankind existed long before they were in their present organized condition is an important underlying concept. Whether one speaks of the origin of the earth from pre-existing, chaotic elements, or the origin of a cognisant spirit existing prior to mortal life in a primal form, the concept that all things existed in some prior form create different models for existence than the more modern religious theories that God created from “nothing”.
2) THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-EXISTING MATTER AND SPIRITS AFFECTS THE THEORETICAL CONSIDERATIONS
Matter existed before creation in this early model
The physical body of a baby is not created out of “nothing”, but rather the material forming a growing embryo comes from pre-existing material nutrients it finds in it’s environment. Just as an embryo is physically organized from the milieu it finds itself in; the “self-willed” matter spoken of in the Pistis Sophia is intelligent matter forms into a cognizant spirit, capable of progression and choice.
In ancient Judao-Christianity, intelligent matter making up spirits was not created by ex-nihilo creation any more than planets were created ex-nihilo. In this model, God takes disorganized matter and organizes it into a planet or star.
For example, early Judeo-Christian descriptions of creation of material planets have God using chaotic matter that is gathered and formed into material planets. “And I [God] called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).
From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : “And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2). In this early Judao-Christian theology, all things are made of matter which have always existed in some form.
Matter also had it’s own characteristics (mass; takes up space, etc) which was not given it by God, but it possessed such characteristics as part of basic reality in this theology.
Spirit existed before birth in this early model
Just as matter, (From which God created Stars, and worlds, etc) always existed in this Judao-Christian Theology, spirits existed as well : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
The prophet Enoch is commanded by the angel to “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
Just as matter has characteristics which are part of it’s nature, spirits or “self willed matter” (as the Pistis Sophia describes spirits) had characteristics which were part of it’s nature. Spirits were, at some level, cognizant and self-willed and capable of progression.
This ancient Judao-Christian belief is so very different the later adoption of “magical creation” or “creation from nothing” which became popular among Jews and Christians. However, creation from a pre-existing source changes the conditions, the context and the degree of intuitiveness of models as to what God was doing in populating the earth with mankind.
An intuitive model regarding what God had planned for these spirits.
1) God, before creation of this earth is in the midst of unorganized matter, including self-willed spirits
2) these intelligent spirits are capable of progression
3) God may intervene in the development of these spirits or not intervene
4) Whether God intervenes or not, the spirits will change and progress
5) These spirits may progress toward civility and social unity and happiness and in good ways.
6) These spirits may progress toward anarchy and social disunity and unrest and evil ways.
If an existing God is full of both knowledge and love, will he intervene to their benefit or not?
7) If God plans to intervene and assist these in progressing in ways that are most beneficial and joyful to them, then what sort of knowledge is most important for immortal spirits to learn FIRST.
For example, does he teach them productive social interactions or moral law first, or does he first teach them chemistry, or botany, or construction, or economics (etc)?
I believe that if these spirits did not learn to live social and moral law first, then other types of knowledge were not as apt to result in social happiness, civility, unity and joy for them as a group. For example, what happens if they learned how to build weapons BEFORE learning patience enough not to use weapons upon simple frustrations.
9) If God has love and wants these self-willed spirits to be able to live with one another in unity and joy in a social “heaven” that will last, then these spirits must be taught principles underlying and upon which unity and joy are to be obtained and sustained.
10) If some self-willed spirits will NOT choose to live in a social group and obey laws upon which such a social unity and joy exist, then they must be excluded from those who chose to live moral and social laws which create and sustain unity and joy. Malignant and evil individuals would destroy the unity and happiness of such a social group if they were allowed to live among them.
11) There must be a sieving or separation of spirits into differing levels of willingness to live such laws or to live lower levels of moral and social laws, or perhaps into groups unwilling to live any level of social moral laws.
In this context of life as an experiential tutoring, I think the model of mortality as a school where eternal beings come to learn the difference between moral good and moral evil, and the disastrous consequences of evil, is a rational and logical model of what a God would try to teach mankind as basic principles before they went on to learn other principles.
In any case Skwim, I hope your journey is good
Clear
σεσε/δρακτζω
Hi Skwim. I actually think your questions are really good and basic questions. I think I understand your comments about your questions not getting the kind of consideration they deserve. I hope my comments are closer to what you have been looking for.
1) Differing Historical concepts of “creation”, change the underlying context of the question and the theoretical conclusions.
I think the ancient Judeo-Christian concepts and teachings allow us to form more rational and more logical religious models of this existence than models created in the later, more “modern” periods.
For example, the early Judeo-Christian concept that both the earth and spirits of mankind existed long before they were in their present organized condition is an important underlying concept. Whether one speaks of the origin of the earth from pre-existing, chaotic elements, or the origin of a cognisant spirit existing prior to mortal life in a primal form, the concept that all things existed in some prior form create different models for existence than the more modern religious theories that God created from “nothing”.
2) THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-EXISTING MATTER AND SPIRITS AFFECTS THE THEORETICAL CONSIDERATIONS
Matter existed before creation in this early model
The physical body of a baby is not created out of “nothing”, but rather the material forming a growing embryo comes from pre-existing material nutrients it finds in it’s environment. Just as an embryo is physically organized from the milieu it finds itself in; the “self-willed” matter spoken of in the Pistis Sophia is intelligent matter forms into a cognizant spirit, capable of progression and choice.
In ancient Judao-Christianity, intelligent matter making up spirits was not created by ex-nihilo creation any more than planets were created ex-nihilo. In this model, God takes disorganized matter and organizes it into a planet or star.
For example, early Judeo-Christian descriptions of creation of material planets have God using chaotic matter that is gathered and formed into material planets. “And I [God] called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).
From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : “And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2). In this early Judao-Christian theology, all things are made of matter which have always existed in some form.
Matter also had it’s own characteristics (mass; takes up space, etc) which was not given it by God, but it possessed such characteristics as part of basic reality in this theology.
Spirit existed before birth in this early model
Just as matter, (From which God created Stars, and worlds, etc) always existed in this Judao-Christian Theology, spirits existed as well : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
The prophet Enoch is commanded by the angel to “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
Just as matter has characteristics which are part of it’s nature, spirits or “self willed matter” (as the Pistis Sophia describes spirits) had characteristics which were part of it’s nature. Spirits were, at some level, cognizant and self-willed and capable of progression.
This ancient Judao-Christian belief is so very different the later adoption of “magical creation” or “creation from nothing” which became popular among Jews and Christians. However, creation from a pre-existing source changes the conditions, the context and the degree of intuitiveness of models as to what God was doing in populating the earth with mankind.
An intuitive model regarding what God had planned for these spirits.
1) God, before creation of this earth is in the midst of unorganized matter, including self-willed spirits
2) these intelligent spirits are capable of progression
3) God may intervene in the development of these spirits or not intervene
4) Whether God intervenes or not, the spirits will change and progress
5) These spirits may progress toward civility and social unity and happiness and in good ways.
6) These spirits may progress toward anarchy and social disunity and unrest and evil ways.
If an existing God is full of both knowledge and love, will he intervene to their benefit or not?
7) If God plans to intervene and assist these in progressing in ways that are most beneficial and joyful to them, then what sort of knowledge is most important for immortal spirits to learn FIRST.
For example, does he teach them productive social interactions or moral law first, or does he first teach them chemistry, or botany, or construction, or economics (etc)?
I believe that if these spirits did not learn to live social and moral law first, then other types of knowledge were not as apt to result in social happiness, civility, unity and joy for them as a group. For example, what happens if they learned how to build weapons BEFORE learning patience enough not to use weapons upon simple frustrations.
9) If God has love and wants these self-willed spirits to be able to live with one another in unity and joy in a social “heaven” that will last, then these spirits must be taught principles underlying and upon which unity and joy are to be obtained and sustained.
10) If some self-willed spirits will NOT choose to live in a social group and obey laws upon which such a social unity and joy exist, then they must be excluded from those who chose to live moral and social laws which create and sustain unity and joy. Malignant and evil individuals would destroy the unity and happiness of such a social group if they were allowed to live among them.
11) There must be a sieving or separation of spirits into differing levels of willingness to live such laws or to live lower levels of moral and social laws, or perhaps into groups unwilling to live any level of social moral laws.
In this context of life as an experiential tutoring, I think the model of mortality as a school where eternal beings come to learn the difference between moral good and moral evil, and the disastrous consequences of evil, is a rational and logical model of what a God would try to teach mankind as basic principles before they went on to learn other principles.
In any case Skwim, I hope your journey is good
Clear
σεσε/δρακτζω
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Why did god create humans?
.
God knows what every parent knows. Kids make life Grand!!
As I see it, we are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. The physical universe exists because it's causal nature aids in the education. Life is the education of God's children.
I love your cartoon sprinkle in the jerks. There is more wisdom to that than you might realize. In a multilevel classroom, there are people with many levels of understanding. How else can the jerks ever learn anything if they were kept to themselves? There will always be kids placed in this world needing to learn.
Skwim
Veteran Member
I can see only to reasons: 1) For the fun of it. 2) We need its help.
Which of the two do you think god is aiming for?
.
Skwim
Veteran Member
How do you know The God isn't experimenting? Wouldn't that be a third reason?
And therein lies the crux of the whole question.......we exist because "God is love" and so he generously decided at some point in his infinite existence that he wanted to share life with other beings.
We exist, not because God created us individually, but because he created all living things to reproduce their kind without any intervention from him. We are designed to be self sustaining and self replicating on this planet.
The odds against us as individuals ever experiencing life, is monumental, considering the number of eggs our mothers were born with, and the number of sperm generated by our fathers.....just one of each made "us". There is no one like us. Not even identical twins are completely identical in personality. Once we are here, we can either treasure life and look for ways to make it better, or whine about it and throw tantrums about everything that isn't right.
The Bible gives reasons for our present condition, but also gives hope that once the issues resulting from an abuse of free will are settled, then all will return to the way things were in Eden. Paradise on earth awaits those who are patiently waiting for God's "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven".
This is one of the most implausible of apologetic arguments.
Almighty God, Omnimax and Benevolent, must test humans. Or else He doesn't know enough about them.
Tom
Skwim
Veteran Member
So there are a lot of spirits that need learnin', and to do so they have to spend time on Earth. That about it?
.
Skwim
Veteran Member
JakofHearts
2 Tim 1.7
This, I think is a question when asked by someone isn't a question that cannot be answered by somebody else. It is something that one person must discover, to experience for themselves. I don't think my personal intimacy is exactly the same as the next persons, and why would it be? for we are all our own individual self, and aesthetic truths are meant to be experienced, not accessed by talking about it.
Jesus himself grew in wisdom and ultimately became what he was born to be; (Luke 2:52) And that same self-revelation he had applies also to all of us. Human beings, religious or not have that capacity to contemplate the deeper aspects of reason, providence and life, finding the meaning of life are all ones own personal journey.
Jesus himself grew in wisdom and ultimately became what he was born to be; (Luke 2:52) And that same self-revelation he had applies also to all of us. Human beings, religious or not have that capacity to contemplate the deeper aspects of reason, providence and life, finding the meaning of life are all ones own personal journey.
2X4
Member
In this first generation, the plan was only to use a few men to learn how they're created and then teach that to whoever was chosen to listen to that knowledge. In the next generation. all men will know who they are.
Jeremiah 31
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.
JakofHearts
2 Tim 1.7
These verses seem to be foreshadowings of the second coming of Christ which I assume is what you are implying to me. Yes, most never figure it out about this life and few ever find it, but in the end, there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that not will be made known. (Luke 12:2)
The potter and the clay come to mind when a person questions the potter directly, which is in of itself not something that can be so easily grasped. Jesus himself who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage or grasped. (Philippians 2:6)
2X4
Member
Jesus didn't have full knowledge yet because he was the first to start the millennium reign of Christ.
John 14
11: Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
13: Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;
14: if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16: And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17: even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
arthra
Baha'i
Thanks for your question "Skwim" by reflecting the Divine attributes we can more readily build the foundations of a higher civilization...
An Ever-Advancing Civilization | What Bahá’ís Believe